Interview with author Dana Swift!

Hello!

In this episode we’re interviewing author Dana Swift!

Dana Swift is a YA fantasy author repped by Kelly Dyksterhouse of Tobias Literary. She is the author of the Cast in Firelight duology, as well as the forthcoming When Dealing With Dragons, a YA Romantasy set for release this July. Dana got her degrees in English and Advertising at UT Austin, where she fenced saber and met her husband. When she’s not working on her books, she can be found reading and critiquing at her local writing workshop. 

You can find Dana and her books here:

Website: https://www.danaswiftbooks.com/

Preorder When Dealing With Dragons!: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250402431/whendealingwithdragons/

Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/19510928.Dana_Swift

Buy Dana’s first book here!: https://bookshop.org/p/books/cast-in-firelight-dana-swift/5723c22ea1c09ac0?ean=9780593124239&next=t

Here are some of the authors, artists, and other things we brought up during the episode. Just a disclaimer - please do not take our word as fact. The publishing industry is always changing, and often we are talking about things we are remembering from a while ago or have heard from others. It’s always important to do your own research! If we realize after the fact that we have gotten anything wrong, we will do our best to correct it in the show notes.

Beth is Dead (Dana’s friend’s book): https://tinyurl.com/yz5ukxa2

Charlie Bowater (artist): http://www.charliebowater.net/

Wednesday Books: https://wednesdaybooks.com/

Delacorte Books: https://randomhousebooks.com/imprint/dell-delacorte-books/

DFW writers workshop: https://www.dfwwritersworkshop.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello, I'm Maria. And I'm Suzanne. And welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this utterly gate confusing but incredibly fun and rewarding industry. And today for our interview episode, we are joined by the lovely Dana Swift. Welcome, Dana. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, we're so excited to have you on. Dana Swift is a YA fantasy author wrecked by Kelly Dykster House of Tobias Literary. She is the author of The Cast in Firelight Duology as well as The Forthcoming When Dealing with Dragons, a YA romantic set for release this July. Dana got her degrees in English and Advertising at UT Austin, where she fenced Saber and met her husband. When she's not working on books, she can be found reading and critiquing at her local writing workshop. And I think, oh gosh, it seems like you have had like a um a crazy publishing journey with like your second book deal, which was a six-figure deal. Like, congratulations. That is so huge. Um I'd love to hear a little bit about um, well, I guess to start off with, because you have a forthcoming book that you're promoting, um, can you pitch us the log line of your book that's coming out?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah. Oh gosh. You know what's funny about this being like the first podcast or interview I've done like in person is I don't have it like right off the cuff. Um but let me let me proceed. Anyway, so this is uh when dealing with dragons is in a world where dragons don't breathe fire in this world, they actually have like a metal coat, and humans have learned how to manipulate that metal coat, so it's become this kind of commodity. And so we have um a girl who's a dragon veterinary who lives on a sanctuary, and a her school rival who interns on that sanctuary for the summer, and all the while they don't very much like well, she doesn't very much like him, and he has a huge crush on her. Um, and they have to fake date to protect an endangered species on the sanctuary. And I won't spoil anything more by going into other facets, but um, yeah, it's it's very like rom-commi meets kind of high stakes fancy. I think sounds super cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

That angle is very exciting for me. I'm very excited for it. Um, I actually pre-ordered the audiobook on Audible. I'm very excited to listen to it. I'm curious, did they give you any say in like like when you sell the audio rights? First of all, was that with your initial publishing deal or was that a separate rights deal? And do they give you any control or do you did you ask for any input with the audio rights or with any of your other rights deals? Because I know you have several pretty big rights deals that came after that sale.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, so my initial sale for with Dealing Dragons is I'm going to be published in June 30th with Wednesday Books. And it was a two-book deal. And with that, audio rights is like in the contract. But normally audio rights is in the contract anyway, because as publishers have learned, like audio is such a huge market. So a lot of times the publisher really wants to retain those rights. Sometimes they'll give them up, but most of the time they're really wanting them. Um and so when I was talking to Kelly, my agent, I asked, like, are they gonna for sure make an audio? Because audio is so important to me. Um, and sometimes that deal does come later. But for me, I think McMillan, which is part of um which is under Wednesday, or Wednesday is under McMillan, I think they just were gonna do it anyway, since it just showed up as like on Amazon on like on all the feeder sites of to purchase books. So I was like, oh, okay. So they're doing it in-house. Other times when uh a publisher doesn't want to do it in-house, what they do is then kind of give you back the rights, or they try to sell it themselves to like Tandor or like other uh like listening library, like things like that. So, yes, for this one, it was kind of like they wanted to do it and they've done it from the beginning. It's coming out the exact same publishing day. On my debut, audio rights got sold like a year later. So the audio came out with the paperback. Um, so in that way, it's like a little different. So sometimes they don't come out at the same time, but it's all just nebulous of like when does things sell and when does the publisher want to do what? So um, but for both times, I've actually had a say in that I've gotten um well, my first time with my debut, I got different options, and it was like each very famous, you know, person would just read from a sample that they've already done. This time around, I got four samples of the girl and three samples of boys, and they were reading exact passage from my book. So it's like they had auditioned, and my audiobook producer was like, Okay, who do you want? Like, they're all excited. And I'm like, What do you mean they're excited?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

So it's oh my gosh, that must have been such a cool experience.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah, I actually have a video on my social media. Like, I was just at a cafe with my friend when I got them in, and so I started listening to them right then in the cafe, and she videoed me. Um, but yeah, I got to choose, which is very excited. I'm very excited that it's going to be the dual point of view. Um, so we get both voices, but it's not going to be a duet, it's just a dual point of view. Um, and I can talk about that difference if if listeners don't know. Yeah, but go ahead. Yeah, so duet is when like every single line of the female or the male or whatever character is read by that person. Uh dual is when it's like the male, like the the guy is reading just the uh the male's point of view, and the girl is just reading the girl. So like the girl then has to put on like kind of a masculine voice for the boy, and then the boy has to put on like maybe a feminine voice for the girl. So duet is much more expensive. So normally you don't see duet until unless you're making like a whole dramatic reading or like they really want to put some money into it. But some of the best audiobooks really are that duet, but duel is still like amazing. Um, so yes, I did get to put pick, and she they basically said, whoever you pick gets like basically gets the gig. And I'm like, it's so weird to be on this side of the people who say yes to other people. Because I'm so as you probably guys know, it's you're as a creative and a writer, you're so used to being told no, and you're just like, okay, thank you. I will keep going. Thank you for your time and consideration, as we put it on the bottom of every query letter. So it was very, very strange to be like, oh, I'm the one giving them this job, and that they're very happy, you know. And I've actually connected with the girl who will do the Farron's voice, and she and I are actually going to try to do a launch event together in LA. So I'm very excited. Like she'll be my conversational partner in LA. Um, and so we're working on that. Um, and I'm very excited that I'll be in conversation with the person, like I'm the one who wrote the character, and then she's the one who like gave it its personality.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

I'd I'd love to hear a little bit about like, are you going on book tour? Like, what like you're in the midst of promoting your upcoming book, like what goes into that, especially for like a bigger book release with one of the big five?

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, so I am going on tour. Um, I didn't with my debut because it was COVID. So I'm sure we'll talk about a lot of the compare and contrast. And a lot of the compare and contrast is just it's not COVID times. Um, so I did go on, like, I did all this like video and virtual tour for my first one. So this time I was like, I wish to go on tour. And it was like one of the things I've made very clear to like my team. And they have they're like, sure, sure, as long as you can like promise that certain cities, like you can actually have an audience, because a lot of bookstores are very gracious and really want you to come, but they don't want to do this whole event for like five people, which sometimes happens, actually happens a lot. And I would be, yeah, see, it's like it's more common than not. And I was actually the event planner for a huge bookstore in Miami, and so like I was the one who would like talk to publicists and like you know, calendar out and then like be there for the authors. And I've seen huge names only get 10 people. I've seen local people get 200 people, like it's just it's so variable. And one of those variables is just like the localness of it of like, will people come out for you, especially as like a debut or a midless author, which I kind of am still in that, like hopefully um getting will get more and more people. But one of my tour stops will be like Miami because I have connections there. Um, one of my other tour stops will be Dallas because I had I was part of a writing group there, and then I'm going to be here in Austin, which is where I am right now. I just moved here. So yeah, there'll be a few stops. And then LA, I'm very excited about. And that's the one where I'm like, please come, please, please come.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

That's so cool. How how much of that did you do versus did your team do for you? Like how much support do they give? Um, I guess for both projects, because you you worked with like several different budgets and and like projections for debut, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Yeah. So for are you talking for like event planning and tour or just for in general?

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Event planning and tour and also just like general promotion of the book. Like what do you do versus what did your house do versus what did they tell you they expect you to do?

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, yeah. So it's been very interesting because after I debuted, um, I actually then got a job at my local indie where I was the book buyer and the event coordinator for YA and Children's. And that job really helped me open my eyes because there's so many authors, I think, as mid list, or like when you don't get much money, that first deal, I think there's a lot of lot of people out there. They're like, my publisher's doing nothing. And it's just so funny because it's like no publisher does nothing, like they definitely do something, even if they it's if it only feels like they make a great cover and then they push you out into the world, which I know a lot of authors express like that's how it feels. Um, but there's so much behind the scenes that you just like don't know. Like putting you up on NetGalley, for instance, costs money. Putting you on a giveaway on Goodreads costs money, but making bookmarks, doing any graphic creation, like any of that is like someone on the keyboard doing it. For my debut, what happened was um, so they did print arcs in March of 2020. We got stuck in China.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

And it was like, yeah, we can just never like don't count on them. You're not getting them. And they never made it domestically. Like, oh my gosh, like to this day, yeah, to this day. So like they somewhat made it like internationally.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

So this is like kind of collector's item.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

If you can get your hands on one of these, you don't know how sad I was entering giveaways to just have one arc, and I was messaging people being like, if no one wants this, can I will like pay money for it? And never no one like got back to me until this one person in the UAE had an arc, and I was like, I will give you a final copy signed with all the swag, and we basically like traded across the country, and she got a final signed copy, and I got one arc months after it already been published. But like it was so special to me. But where I was going with that is the horribleness of that was they had kind of wasted that money, like that is a lot of money to print a physical arc, and they were just like, Whoof, there goes your budget, and I'm like, Oh, oh, that sucks.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

But so like they did things for me, but I was in the time of COVID, they had authors they had spend thousands upon thousands of dollars for, and so they were like, we cannot lose money on those. But the ones that oh, we've just spent a like a little like to them pennies, you know, because publishing, like, you know, like the the range of deals can be so dramatically like here's your $1,000 or here's your one million dollars, right? So I was very much on the lower end, so I think they were like, we'll make our money back. Put all attention on the books that like if we don't sell a little bit, like we are going to be like in the red. So it was just a very, very unfortunate timing in a lot of ways. So I learned how to make my own graphics. Um, I learned how to reach out to people like you and like do kind of these opportunities where it's like if someone's in my DMs wanting to do a book club, a podcast, an interview, like I would always say yes. Um, so I got into that like yes mentality and it was paid off because like these are the moments that actually mean so much to me because it's like you're putting your platform out there and letting me talk about my book, and it's just so wonderful. So like you kind of people and like anybody in the bookish community, like you guys are what make mid list, small books, niche books, even big, big books, like you are what makes publishing kind of go around and you know, have a you know, uh have a lot of authors have a career because of this kind of opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Blattered will get you everywhere, thank you. Yeah, you heard it here first, folks.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, we're very important. So I guess to answer the question too, is I also like so I learned what the publisher like won't do for you, but at the same time, like my old publisher, like they did print arcs, they it's just it kind of womp womp didn't happen. They did put me on NetGolly. Um they did give me um like I mean the main thing about self-publishing versus traditional is that distribution power. And with Penguin Random House, Penguin Random House has like the best distribution power of all Big Five. Because when you think about Big Five, really Penguin Random House has like 50% of the market. Like, and when I'm buying for them, like their catalogs are like a thousand books versus McMillan, the YA catalog is like 300 books. So like that disparity, like Penguin Random House is like the big ocean, and you can be a very small fish and feel like a very small fish, and that's how I kind of felt with them. But at the same time, at least you're in the ocean, you know, at least they have that distribution power where it's like you want to go from point B to you know Pacific to Atlantic, like they can do it, and McMillan can as well, and that but like that's where I find the biggest difference is that McMillan then like, well, we only have 300 titles to worry about each season, so there is a little bit more focus. And for me, one of the bigger compare and contrasts of Penguin versus Penguin House versus McMillan is that that like that attention. But also for me, it really is just like it depends on your editor and your team. And so, like, if you have an editor who emails you, you can feel like, oh my gosh, they care about me. I, you know, I get to talk to these people versus my Penguin Random House editor would ghost me a lot, and like in that, like, she's just busy, and that's the thing about publishing, everyone's so busy, but it does feel so warm and welcoming where it's like if I email someone, they'll get back to me in a week, versus I would email and then just like hope for like the next six months that I would get an answer, and it so that's the big difference. But is that a Pingo Randhouse versus McMillan? Not really. It's really like that particular editor versus that particular editor.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah, and it's hard to know who you're gonna get paired with. Um I would imagine there was a little bit more choice in your second book deal because you had a preempt, right? Which implies like you might have gone to auction, you had uh interest. Can you talk a little bit about like what that experience was like and what happened?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah. So for listeners who don't know, like when an agent submits you, which is called like being on sub, there's like four things that can happen. One, you just get rejected and you have to shelve that book. Two is you get like one offer, and then that offer, the agent will tell all the other publishing houses, hey, we have an offer. And that offer will then um generate other people raising their hands and saying, I want to throw my hat in the ring as well. Or they'll be like, Oh, thank you. Congrats. I'm gonna pass, you know, I don't have time or I'm not interested. And then you just have that one offer and you have to talk to your agent, like, do we want to take this or let's try to negotiate? Um, the third option is that that offer then turns into other people being interested and it can turn into an auction, which is when you know there's kind of a bidding war, which is everyone's kind of dreaming. Um, a preempt normally is when someone has expressed interest and the agent can kind of tell other people there's interests. And so when there's a lot of interest, that publishing house, in fear that a bitty more might happen, they then throw out a bigger number and say, take this, and then like tell everyone else no before they can like push up the number. Um, and I was always kind of taught that if you turn down the preempt, that they could then walk away. And I have heard that happen, but I've also had a friend who had a preempt and her agent was like, no, let's walk away. And then it went into an auction where I was just like money, money, money, you know, like it just it went into this bidding war. And I was like, wait, so you can turn down the preempt, and sometimes they're so interested that they still put their offer in. So it just you have to like really trust your agent in that moment because you don't want to be like play it risky, and then there's no offer at the end of the day. Um, so for my debut, it was just one offer, and I was very happy with it because it was Delacourt, so like, which is amazing why yeah, like I love them, they have wonderful covers. For me, for the second one with Dealing with Dragons, um, Abrams was actually interested first, and I had a call with them on like a Monday, and then the next day, Wednesday, which is the one I went with, um, which is part of McMillan, they also were interested and they said, Well, I want to call too. And so I had a call with them on the next day, which is Tuesday, and then the way they were talking, it was like they'd already, you know, they just like wanted to make sure I was like okay or normal. And then like just they had a few questions for me. It felt very much like an interview, and we can talk about that, especially because like the two book deal part of your question later. Yeah, but the next day I got the um preempt with Wednesday. And the thing about Wednesday is like they're a dream publisher of mine. Like, I think they just do such a good job. And so I went with the preempt and my agent was all for it. Um, but I also have that misconception that like if we say no, you would also be like offending them to the point where they could be like, okay, then we back out totally if you don't want us. But it's like if you really love uh Imprint and they make a preempt offer, like it's best to then just like negotiate and go with them. And so that was the thing. It's like Wednesday was my dream pick. So when they preempted, it was like a no-brainer to let's just talk to them more, right? Um, but if you get a preempt from someone you're not that interested in, like do what my friend did and you know, maybe ask your agent and test your luck because sometimes it can then be she then got like the dream editor and team that she did want because she had all this other um interest. Would you like to give your friend a shout out?

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Um, if she has a book coming out as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Uh her book's actually already come out. So her name's Katie Burnett, and her book is Beth is Dead. Um, it came out January 6th. It's on the New York Times bestselling list for like eight weeks. Eight weeks. Oh my gosh, good for her.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

See, yeah, it's such a good it's Little Women Meets Murder Mystery. And she was my critique partner. So she I helped edit Beth is Dead. She helped edit When Dealing with Dragons, and we met every week. And yeah, she's one of my very, very good friends.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

That's amazing. We'll put her book in the show notes. Um Yes, please. I'd love to hear. So so when you had those two calls, was it is it like you were meeting with the potential editor that you would be working with? Um, so did they pitch you like what potential edits they had or their vision for the book? And what part did that play? In your choice?

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah. So yes, Abrams, it was the editor, and then Wednesday, it was the editor and like the editorial director of Wednesday. So one call was just with an editor, and one was with my the editor and like her boss. Um and with Abrams, they both very much during that call, it's a very much like a call that you have with an agent where you talk about where they kind of foresee the book, where they think placement will happen with your editorial call. It's more like what season are we thinking? What um, you know, what marketing strategy, you know, we even talked about the cover for like a smidge of time, which was fun. Um, and so yes, then but the main call is like them talking about like how much they love the book, and then you thanking them graciously and kind of freaking out that that's even possible, and then getting kind of that first feel of editorial notes. And if you are ever at auction where you have to choose, a lot of times it is like that whole package of like the advance, which is like the main money that they give you, but then also like marketing strategy, season, what they're you know, what they're thinking, how they're placing the book, and then also like those big editorial notes that you'll, you know, especially if there's something huge, like I don't think the ending's working, or I think you know, XYZ, that can kind of um lead you to choose one or the other because it's like, oh, this vision matches better with what I'm thinking the book should be and where the book should be on the shelf.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

That makes sense. I I do want to talk about the cover a little bit because the art for it is absolutely gorgeous. I'm curious as to what you guys talked about in that meeting. And like, did you get to help pick the artists? Like, did you get to give in feedback?

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, yeah, of course. So, like in that Zoom meeting, um, I know one of your questions talked about this. So, in the Zoom meeting, um they were like, What are you thinking? And I was like, I want a two-book deal. And so that's where some of the we can talk about that later. Um, I was very like, and they're like, Okay. And I was like, Really? Um But for the cover, yes, we kind of talked about it. It was very obvious. Um, because I got my book deal in summer of 2024. So typically once you sell, it'd be like 18 months or three seasons later is when the book then comes out. So that would be more of a spring release in 2026. But they were like, How do you feel about it being summer? Because it's such a summer book and it would fit better in the summer catalog. And I said, Yes, I agree. And that's where we kind of talked about like, I want the cover, like the lushness, and like I want to be very colorful and greens and like blues and purples. Um, and they were like, Yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, and then months, months later, when they actually like start talking to design, they told me it was going to be like dragons on the cover and um very much different than what it was. I then created like a 13-page document with here's four different ideas. Um, and then I had like a list of like 10 different artists I love that would I thought would do a good job. And the very first one was like, Well, my favorite is Charlie Bowater, but I can't be so lucky to get her again. Like, because I had her for my debut and its sequel. And so I was like, I mean, I love Charlie Bowater, but like Wednesday doesn't choose Charlie that much. And like when I was during my debut during that 2020, it was like everyone's truly choosing Charlie Bowater at the time. So it went from like Charlie's done three books to by the time I published, it was like Charlie's done 20 books. So she became like very, very well known because she's just so amazing. So I then think a lot of publishers were like, let's ease off Charlie Bowater so that every cover doesn't look the same. Um, so I was very surprised when they were like, Yeah, we want to do Charlie. And I was like, Oh, okay. And so, like those other 20 artists who are like much lesser known, I was just like, I mean, I'll just use that list to get my own commission, my own fan art and things like that for later. Um, but yeah, they chose of the four ideas, um, they chose like my first one. Um, and I've had a lot of say uh Charlie is great in that she gives you like the sketch. And once you go with Charlie, like I don't know, you can't like you can't go wrong. Like she just you have I have complete trust in her. So there's never the like, oh, we're thinking that. Uh the only thing, the only thing I had was it was just they were like, oh, we want her like facing away and like back to the like back to the camera kind of feel. And I was like, oh, because my main character has um glasses, and Charlie is known for her faces, like she is such a good, like clothes, hair, face, like she is so good. And the fact that they were like, Yeah, we want to chop off her like the top of her head and like not have her facing camera or like facing this. I was just like, but but it's Charlie, you're wasting like all her talent. But and I was like, okay, sure. Um, so that was one thing that was like in my perfect world, I probably would have like my main character like facing like turned a little bit more so that you could see her glasses and like her face more because I think Charlie's just masterful, but other than that, um, I mean the cover is just wonderful. So yeah, it turned out gorgeous. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

I think your cover really captures that like romanticy um vibe. And one of my main questions was did you know when you were writing this book that romanticy was so hot? Did you like purposely try and write a romanticy or did that come about later? I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about like the genre and how you feel like your place is in it and how you got there.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah. I when romantic became more of a thing and like on trend, um it was funny because to me, it's like romanticy has been around for a long time. And especially in the YA space, like you get more like nowadays, one of the biggest trends is genre mashing in the adult space or just in general, like it's a horror, romance, mystery, thriller with some, you know, like you you see that where it's like it's dystopian, but a love story doesn't like you see that mashup, and that mashup started in YA, and that's why I love YA so much because it normally is that like frontier of the genre mashups of you know, it's a fantasy, but there's like a good portion of it to be romance because a lot of teen girls, or just which is the biggest market of that are buying YA will then like want that kind of romance. So I was always writing fancy with like a good helping of romance to the point where I'm like, it's pretty 50-50. And to me, that's a definition of romanticy. So when romantic became a thing, I was just like, yeah, half the books I read in the YE space are already romanticy. So it's just really fun to see it like get its, you know, time in the sun. Um, and I'm glad like the adult spaces then like using more genre mashup kind of things like that, where it's like fancy plus romance. Um, but of course, when it gets mainstream trendy like that, there's always this like rising tide of people being like, I don't like this. And it's like, but it's been around for ages. So like I don't know. So I was already writing romanticy. Every single thing I've ever written is romanticy, but it's just in that publishing, it's like you change your query letter to instead of why fancy with a nice helping of romantic subplot, it is now like, oh yes, romanticy, or if dystopian's out, no, it's a sci-fi or a uh, you know, a fantasy that has like suspenseful elements or like political themes. So like they just change the wording. So if you are querying right now, sometimes you just have to like look at the trends and then like know how to place your book. For me, especially on that call, I didn't write or set out to write a cozy fantasy, but then during that call, they're like, Yeah, we love how warm-hearted, and I'm like, Yeah, it is warm-hearted, and how cozy it is. And I was like, Oh, you're gonna market it as cozy, and they're like, Yeah, we're going market it as cozy because we need a cozy fantasy. And I was like, Oh, that's why I'm getting the deal I'm getting, because like I natur, I just happened to fall into the like trend of romanticy, YA, cozy at the exact right time. And it happened to be, I wrote dragons before the dragon trend, even. And when the dragon trend was happening, and I was on sub, I was like, oh no, I'm too late. Like, they've already bought up all these dragon books and they don't want another. But they did. I'm like, I feel like dragons are like lasting a little bit longer, so it's like, ooh, thank God. Um, but that's the beauty of just like write the book you want to write, write the book of your heart. But then when it comes time to query or submission or be in these conversations with publishers, like you lean into their terms, and but then you also want to make sure that like your audience isn't like this isn't cozy, and then like you know, like, wait, I swear, like that isn't my term. So you just have to like make sure you're leaning into the right one so that it correctly identifies the book. Yeah, that's great advice.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Yeah, because I feel like if you try to write to the trends, you're always gonna be behind. So Right, right. Great advice for those of us who still need to find like that way in.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

I'd be curious to know, like, when you went in with your book, did you have like a pitch in mind? Because you'd said you came in with like, I want a two-book deal. Did you have like a sequel or a spin-off you really wanted to write? Or what is it just the idea of like, I didn't my first duology, it was a great experience. I want to do a second, or how like how did that pan out? And what was the conversation like?

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, I'm so glad you're asking this because it's such like it's a very different story than I think a lot of people walk into. So my first duology actually wasn't that great experience because I always in my head planned a trilogy. And I walked into that book deal with I want it to be a trilogy. But at the time, a lot of times, uh, Y Fancy, they they don't just hand out like you get a three-book deal, you get a three-book deal. Like a lot of times they're like, let's just start with one or two, because like the markets shifted a little bit into people wanting shorter, you know, the duology is a little bit more uh safe in terms of investment. Um and they want to make sure, like, we'll give you, we'll give you one a second chance, but a third chance, we'll see until sales, you know. So with that, I wrote my cast and fire light was very much, you know, as you query it, you know, a standalone with series potential. And I got the two-book deal. And at the time I was like, well, and my agent kind of convinced me to like let's take it because and not push for the third because you know it's it was a very small deal. And when we get that option, and an option is like the next book you write, they that your publisher gets the first option of refusal, and so the option will be the third book, and hopefully it's done so well that they'll take it and they'll give you more money. Like that's that was the dream, that was the plan. And then COVID came along. Um, and when I was writing the sequel, my editor, who was a wonderful editor, but very bad communicator, basically I was like, I can't write book two until I know. Am I getting a third? And she's like, write it how you want, write it like there'll be a third. And I'm like, okay. And then when I turned in book two, she five months later was like, I haven't read it, I'm leaving publishing forever. Good luck to you. It's been a blast.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

My new editor was like, we'll see on sales. And then when sales came around because of COVID and all the that stuff, which, as I've talked about marketing-wise, kind of hurt in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Um you'd think too, they'd hold authors to a different standard during a global pandemic when no one can get physical copies of things.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

You would think, but I think like they're hurting, like at the time, like they were hurting too. And for those who can't see me, I'm finger or air quoting. Like they're hurting too in a lot of ways. So I think they were like, cut our losses and run. Go with you know, like get bigger deals for the ones that do become bestsellers. Like, I think it's just a hard time for everybody. Um, but yeah, you would think they would give some grace to debuts, but like that's what's so hard about like you only debut once. And so, like, a lot of my friends who do these like very small deals or um small presses or vanity presses or self-publish that first book, it's just kind of like you only debut once. So, like a lot of times these a lot of the traditionally published, like they can't market you as like a like a shiny debut anymore. So that is something to consider. But like if you really want to be on the traditional publishing trash, like kind of wait until you have like a very solid agent and a very solid deal. Cause like you don't want to walk into like that bad first experience because that sales number kind of tracks you. Um, like one of the things in that big meeting with McMillan is like the editorial director was like, So why are your sales bad? And I was like, What? And I was like, interview mode. Oh, COVID, duh duh duh. I'm a better like, and I basically pulled out the like they might be bad-ish, but and I'm talking bad in like such relative terms because I earned out my debut. I've earned double what they paid me for my debut. So it is kind of like, what is bad in this industry? It's this huge question mark where they like don't tell you what's good or bad, so that they can control you of like, we don't want your next book, or we do want your next book. It's also nerve-wracking. I know it's it's so hard. And that's what's like I mean, writing's hard, editing's hard. Like every part of this process is hard. It's just different where like there is some lack of control once you get into the machine of publishing, then it is just very much like, oh, I can't control sales, I can't control marketing. So you just have to keep trying. And that's what like I'm very, very excited for when dealing with dragons, because it does feel like this is my second chance. Um, but to go back to like the initial what you guys asked, I because I had such a horrible time with my duology that I wanted to be a trilogy, I was like, I want to write a standalone. Kids need more standalones. I like reading standalones. I want a fully complete standalone. So When Dealing with Dragons was written as a standalone, fully and completely. And I wanted the second book as like, oh, I will produce for you another complete standalone so that I can get more opportunities of like, if you don't like my debut duology or you don't like When Dealing with Dragons, like there'd be another opportunity down the line where they could have a different entry point of like, I like a Dana Swift novel. And basically, they were like, Yes, we are okay with that. Um, but my editor did kind of in that call be like, Oh, I'd really like to explore the world more. And I guess I should have known that was a hint because later, about six months later, they sold the UK rights. And my UK editor said, We will buy the two books if the second book is a sequel or a companion. And she pitched it like I really, really want a companion. So my editor went, they're giving they're handing us potential money. Do you want money? And I went, oh, and my agent was like, take the money. So I was like, oh, time to draft up what a companion novel might look like, even though that was unplanned completely. So I had to draft up the synopsis, the query letter, like basically the package to the pitch for the UK editor to take it and then then work with my US editor to then create this. So my book in 2027 is now a companion novel, and I am I'm done with it. I've then done dev edits and I'm in the dev edit line edit kind of process for it now. So that's where I am in the in the cogs of the system of the process.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

I'm curious, what what did you have planned for? Did you have a whole different universe you'd created or a different world?

SPEAKER_00 39:42

You know, I I also didn't have like an idea that was like I had to. So that was another thing too, was just like, sure, I'll I'll put my time in, you know, I love the world and my editor loved the world. So it was fun to dive. It always is fun to dive back in. I just didn't want a sequel because it is, as we've talked about, a romanticy. So at the heart, a romance should have a happily ever after or happily for now. And so I didn't want the sequel, as many sequels tend to do with this kind of thing, to break them apart or split them up or anything like that. Right. You will not ruin my little romance book. So that's why the companion, I was like, oh, I'll do two new characters and they can have their own romance, and that way you aren't afraid for my hero and heroine for like a breakup scene or a separation or a additional conflict, you know. Um, so yeah, that's the thing too, is I wanted it to be so separated that like you could come in on the second one. So act it's like a very minor side character's younger sister in a different city. So okay. The hero and heroine of When Dealing with Dragons are Farn and James, and they are side characters in the second one, so that's very exciting. But um, the two main characters of the sequel, they aren't in the first one at all, so it will be like you know, a whole new kind of uh characterization and stepping stone for that. So you don't have any it isn't the best friend. I I know that's the like the big rule, but that it isn't the best friend. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

I love it when authors do like little Easter eggs for their other books in like other novels.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be full of Easter eggs, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Yeah, I know you've talked a little bit about like some of the deals you were offered. Um, do you mind sharing what you were offering for the deals?

SPEAKER_00 41:41

So for cast and bound, which is so cast and fire line, bound by firelight, it was a $30,000 uh dollar deal with $15,000 for each book. And then um in a very like this feels very like good, is that uh when dealing with dragons is just adding a zero, so it's $150 for both books, uh, and that comes out to $75 per book. Oh, that's so exciting! Congrats on your big deal.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

You're trending in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yes, yes, keep adding the zeros for each deal.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

To add another zero. So um, and a lot of times, uh, this is the beauty of like my agent was like we could get it, uh she was like, we could try to get it up to 200 or like a bigger money, like the advance, or we could get foreign rights. Which do you want? And I said, I want foreign rights because I also like not having to pay. I really like my dream is to always earn out with my book. So I mean, that's always this big goal for me. So if I can, you know, so for me, it's like I don't want the bigger advance and the more pressure, but um, foreign rights is like to see my book in you know, in German or you know, in in Italian and like different, that's so like amazing for me too. So I told her, like, please try to get the foreign rights. So we sold because at first they they held everything, you know, because a preempt, they try to get as much as possible, you know, like it's a lot of you know the deals, you know. They they want they want to retain as much as possible, we want to retain as much as possible. And you know, that's where a good agent will like fight for you. Um, and so Kelly went, okay, gotcha. So we didn't ask for more money, we just asked um to get the foreign. So they have, but they then have the English, and that's why they sold the UK. And then Kelly has been selling Kelly and Tobias Literary have been selling the like the German, Italian, Hungary, France.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Which is exciting. Congratulations. Yeah, do you know? Did they send you like a peek of like the French cover and yeah, like all the different versions?

SPEAKER_00 43:58

I'm still waiting. Germany. For sure, like Germany is actually going to be publishing a week before on June 23rd of 2026. This one then comes out June 30th, and then UK is July 9th, which is like a week and a half later. Um, so I've seen the German cover, and you guys should go on like Barnes Noble or like you know, you can very much easily find it. It's also on my Instagram, but it's basically the cover without the border. So they like created more negative space and then they changed the font. So they still took like the Charlie Bowater cover, but then just like played with it in a way that is very interesting. And then the UK cover, I was like, Yes, it'll be a new cover, it'll be a new cover because I just love the compare and contrast and the like which you like better kind of you know, readership things. But the UK one is gonna be the exact same.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

So I guess that says something good about like how good of a cover you got the first time, they're not changing it.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah, UK is like we like it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

So yeah, can we talk about Kelly a little bit and how you found your agent and like your journey? Because we've talked to Kelly before and she's amazing, but we'd love to hear your like your querying journey.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Yeah, amazing, yeah, of course. So um for my debut, I queried a very long time to the point where like I was probably right at the uh I should shelve it kind of mentality. Um, and I had pitched, I part of our I was a part of a local writing workshop called DFW Writers Workshop, and they put on a conference, and at that conference, I pitched um an agent in person and she asked for the full. And a few months later, in that midst of like, I'm probably not gonna query Cast and Firelight anymore. It's not looking great. Let me move on to a new thing. Um, she offered, and it was my only agent offer, and a lot of my mentality was like, well, let's just see. Let's just see how this goes. Um, and then she sold it really fast. Like, and Delacourte was the only one who offered because it was so fast. It was like a month, like three weeks. Oh, that is fast. It is fast, though, man. I have time, I have like a lot more friends now where I'm like, how fast was it for you? And they're like, Oh yeah, one day, six hours.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Oh my gosh, you must have some very good writer friends.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

I just like truthfully, as the um event and direct, like I was the event coordinator for books and books in Miami, Florida. And truthfully, like I would help them like sign thousands of copies. And so, like, I was talking to a lot of really big named people of like, how many agents have you had? And they'd be like, five, how many of you? And I'm like, whoa, you know, so it's it was such an eye-opening experience of like how many people switch agents? How many people um get offers like, oh, it took me three years to get I was on sub, or other people being like 30 minutes, you know, like so it's like the range is all just like no one's story is different, and that's why like it's so fun that you guys interview people like this because you know, mine's just one little pathway, but like everyone has such different like journeys, so it's just always interesting. Like the fact that I got my agent like via pitching her in person for five minutes and at the end being like, Oh, I hope I wasn't too rambly, and she's like, No, it was great, and like she had to be like, No, you're fine, and then like months later, be like, Let's go. Um like that's very different. I feel like that doesn't happen very often. Um, but then I I did, I will say there were things that we didn't get on like perfectly as a business partnership. Um so I did as soon as Bound by Firelight got released, I then fired her. And then a few months later, I was back in the trenches in 2023 with a whole new book. Um, not the dragon book, actually. It was uh a funny Hades Persephone retelling. Oh, okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

I'm trying to think of timeline. Is that when Laura Olympus was blowing up too?

SPEAKER_00 48:16

So that story was big, or yeah, like Laura, it was it was like it was a good time of like Laura Olympus, but at the same time, it was still right off COVID, and a lot of editors were just like, I don't want a character who's the god of death. Like, I just I can't, yeah, even though I was like, but it's funny, like it's different. Um, but a lot of lot of people on sub, and Kelly, and this is why I love Kelly so much, is like she really believes in that book and like still does. Um, but a lot of editors were saying, it's gosh, I like Dana, gosh, I like the writing, but it reads too old because it's like gods, not like teens. And so because all the feedback was it reads too old, like it's more in the crossover space, it's more in the adult space. I then edit it to be in the adult space, and we took it out on sub and the adult space, and we'll see how it goes. Probably it's probably gonna be shelved, but you know, there's always this like one little speck of hope in the distance that you know. This June blows up, and then everyone starts offering on it. I know, maybe. I think like that's the thing. Callie's like that speck in the distance is if dragons does really well. But I wrote dragons, uh, when dealing with dragons. In the midst of all that bad, in the midst of all that feedback of like you write to adult, you write it to adult. I'm like, I'm gonna write the most YA of YA thing that like no one can be like, hmm, it's you know, it's in that teetering space. So it's actually like in that I wrote it more for the crossover space between middle grade and YA for that like 12, 13, 14-year-old. Because at its heart, it's a very middle grade concept, which is girl and her dragon, girl caring for creatures, um, which is a much more middle grade concept, but then it has like the romance and the stakes and like a magic system that's a bit more complex that fully puts it in YA. So why it also sold was I think a lot of publishers were like, oh, you fit this like more cross space between middle grade and YA. And I will say, UK in general was like, we are very interested in it because they like their middle grade more than the US is liking their middle grade at the moment. So they were like, we really love that it's like the thing to read right after um, like you're done, like right up that, like you're ready for YA, but you're not ready for some of the YA, you know? Um, because we've all read a YA that you're like, whoa, this is YA. Like I love it, but like, is this for 12 year olds? I don't know. Um, and I was like, I especially I was a bookseller where like 12-year-olds were coming in and I was the romance and fancy like girl to recommend. And there's the 12-year-olds who are like, I want to read this, and I'm like, Oh, you saw that on book talk, didn't you? And it's like the steamiest of steamy romance from like I love it, but like you're 12. I so that's another reason it's sold was because it fits in that space, and um, I also like I wrote it to fit in that space. So, like, that was one of those things where like that was part of the marketing pitch, and also I'm lucky enough that they saw that and appreciated that and are marketing it in that way.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Yeah, it sounds like your bookselling background has just been so like pivotal for you. You're like getting this different perspective and you're really capitalizing on it. That's really it's it's really interesting to hear you. Like, I feel like I can just hear you like lecture on like um everything you've learned from being like an author and a bookseller is fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Yeah, I've actually done whole classes of like marketing in the midst of like what COVID taught me and how to market, but then also like what book buying taught me because I basically would work with sales, the sales team at the at the publishers, which I think a lot of people don't talk to because, like with for instance, Pingram Random House, I would only talk to my editor. Everything is filtered down to like editor is your only communication point. And at McMillan, I get to talk to my publicist or my marketing director or my editor. And there's been times where like I've emailed my editor and my at McMillan, and they're like, that's a marketing director question. So just email her. And I was like, I'm allowed to do something. So that's been this like the joy of like they're just so much more open of uh letting me email versus like one time I DM'd my um art designer at Penguin Rent House to be like, what's going on? And um because the cover was taking a very long time, because back in the day, your designer would just walk down the hall and like print out um your cover to make sure like spot testing and color testing. But during COVID, she's in pencil, like she had to go back home and like she couldn't just walk down the office. So the office would then have to mail her those cover tests. So like it was taking forever, and I was just like, What's going on? And she's like, Oh, well, this is what I have to do. And I was like, Oh, that makes so much sense. But then my editor would be like, Don't you dare talk to this, like you talk to me, and I'm like, Okay, great. Could you email me back though? So I just like my new publisher is just so much more welcoming. But again, like, was that my particular editor who has left publishing? So I'm not even going to say her name because she I loved her, but at the same time, I just wish she would email me more. Um, but it's just like that interaction of like, is this person going to be able to communicate with me? Um, and that's the same thing with agents too. Like, my other agent would be very like, can you sit down and be quiet? versus Kelly is very uh open. And she also is like, wow, Zaina, you have so much experience, you know what's going on. Like, so like she treats me more as an equal, so it's very wonderful. Because as a bookseller, uh, as a book buyer for a very big store, um, because I bought for five stores, and one of those stores was the Judy Bloom store. So I was buying YA and kids' books for the Judy Bloom. And so, like, I had a very big job, and like, so the publishers would respect me a lot, and I would get to talk to the sales team, and they'd be like, Yeah, we paid two million for this book, or oh, we hate the cover. What do you think? And I'm just like, excuse me. So I learned so fun though. Yes, it's so fun, but I was like, I don't think you're supposed to be telling me this. So there's just a lot that I learned, like in the just like the gabbing of sales team and the process and like how things work, and it really showed me how much it's just a business because I then had to return books that didn't sell or figure out a way how to sell them so that you know, so there's just a lot of things where like it really does come back to numbers and sales and the business part of it, which when you're just the creative and the as the author, you're just like you don't really get in the same way that's like, oh, well, the bookstore will lose money if I don't do XYZ. And like, and if we lose money, we will close, and then we it won't be as pivotal literary community for entire city. So, like, there's just a lot at stake that I was just like, it does matter what books sell and what books don't, you know. And that's why if you're just a consumer listening to this, buy books that you love, please. Yes, and support your local bookstores. Support your local bookstore, please.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Um, well, I feel like we've kept you like almost all of the hour, but should we close with maybe one of the fun questions?

SPEAKER_02 56:06

I was really curious when you said you were a saber fencer in college, if you used that as like part of your like writing experience.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah, I'll do one better. I only joined fencing because I was writing fight scenes and being like, this will help me with my fight scenes. That's fantastic. Um, like that was the main like motivational and at UT Austin is a very big school, and I just wanted to join a community. And I've always done like the more interesting thing. Like uh I was in orchestra and I chose to be a violist because like no one else was choosing the viola. I was in color guard because everyone wanted to be on the dance team and I wanted to do something different, so um I very much like go towards the thing that's you know unique. And at the time, like at UT Austin, like the fencing program wasn't huge. Um, but they just they teach you like you didn't need to have experience, so it's been wonderful, and that's how I also met my husband. So we both fence safer together.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

So did you do the dramatic like fighting someone who's masked and then being like, Who is that person? And then you dramatically take off your helmet.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

I mean, most of the time you're fencing like your teammates, where you're like, you're talking to your teammate, then you mask, and then you know, but there were a few cute times where like after we started, because we were friends for like two years, and then we started. And I remember the very first at the end of the bout, um, I was like, our first fight. And he was like, Oh my god, you're ridiculous. But then he was like, But I won. And I'm like, Are you presuming in our relationship that I will always win every fight? Okay, I'd like that.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited for your book to come out. We will put pre-order links in the show notes, and uh, it's coming out June 30th, so keep an eye out. And thank you so much for being here, Dana.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Yeah, thank you. I hopefully, you know, you enjoyed this show, and I I can't thank you guys enough for doing this.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

No, thanks so much for for coming on and yeah, shedding some light on so many different parts of the process.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Yes, it was so informative, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. I want um and to our audience, we will see you next time. Bye. Bye.