Publishing Pals
Welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this oddly gatekept, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
Publishing Pals
Interview with Macmillan Cover Designer Anto Marr!
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Hello!
In this episode we’re interviewing in house Macmillan cover designer, Anto Marr!
Anto Marr is an illustrator and graphic designer specializing in book covers and layout. She has a degree in graphic design from the Savannah College of Art and Design, and has worked for companies such as Booklogix, Macmillan Publishing, and St. Martin’s Publishing.
Anto Marr’s links:
https://www.instagram.com/anto_marrt/
anto.marr.art@gmail.com - reach out to her for freelance book design layout inquiries!
Here are some of the authors, artists, and other things we brought up during the episode. Just a disclaimer - please do not take our word as fact. The publishing industry is always changing, and often we are talking about things we are remembering from a while ago or have heard from others. It’s always important to do your own research! If we realize after the fact that we have gotten anything wrong, we will do our best to correct it in the show notes.
A Curious Kind of Magic: https://tinyurl.com/mpxpd9r
Moonsick: https://tinyurl.com/4zer5wt3
Charlie Bowater (cover artist): http://www.charliebowater.net/
Vera Drmanovski (cover artist): https://www.veradrmanovski.com/
When Dealing With Dragons: https://www.danaswiftbooks.com/whendealingwithdragons
The Crow Lord: https://tinyurl.com/mt57ck6e
The Sun Child: https://tinyurl.com/2nk9suem
Kerri Resnick (book cover designer): https://tinyurl.com/yc47zbsz
Hello, I'm Maria. And I'm Suzanne. And welcome to Publishing Pels Podcast, a podcast where two Pels talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this gate cuped, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry. And today we are joined by Anto Mar. Thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_00Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk on the publishing pals.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I was so excited to talk to you. Um, Anto Mar is an illustrator and graphic designer specializing in book covers and layout. She has a degree in graphic design from the Savannah College of Art and Design and has worked for companies such as BookLogics, McMillan, and St. Martin's Publishing. And I I guess I'd love to start off because I I feel like uh a lot of the like in-house publishing jobs, there's not a lot known about them. Just um like what is the process um for an in-house layout artist of creating a book's cover from like what information you're giving to like how you would work with an illustrator if you're using one to the final product. Like, can you walk us through the process?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. I'd love to start with the process. So I did layout design in past companies, but where I am now at McMillan, I am just a cover designer and layout design is separate for me. So at first I was sad about it because I love layout design, but it is there's a lot that goes into just the cover. So I see why those are two separate jobs. Like you need a lot of people for that. So I would say the process begins with editors obviously um acquire manuscripts from an author. And when it comes time, like once they're ready, not always fully written, but once it's ready, they bring to us like a cover brief, is what we call it, where they let us know the genre of the book, a bunch of stuff about the book, you know, what the characters are like. And then they always give us a couple ideas of like this is the direction of cover I like to see. Here are other covers that I feel my book would fit with. So they give us a whole brief of stuff about their book. And then between my manager and I, we like fight for which books we want to work on the cover for.
SPEAKER_01And then so is it like you get a pile of them and like you you sort through a description or something?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. That's a like we'll each season of books, which we usually we're doing our covers a year out, usually. So right now I'm currently working on what am I working on? I think I'm working on fall winter 27 titles. So they're books that will come out in like January, February of next year. So we're one year out on them. And yeah, our for our imprint, I currently mostly work with Wednesday books, which is a like YA romance thriller, um, queer authors, a lot of like fun YA stuff. So our editors will bring us usually like 10 to 15 titles, and then some teams with more than that titles will have more artists, but right now it's just me and my manager for Wednesday books. And so between the two of us, we will take those like 10 to 15 titles. Um, and so yeah, I'll like let my manager know I'm really interested in like this, this, and this. Like personally, I really love like thriller mystery horror kind of covers. I have a lot of fun with that. Um, I did the cover for Moonsick recently, which is like a werewolf, like it's almost like a COVID kind of world, but it's like a werewolf disease people are getting. And anyway, the cover for that was really fun to do. That sounds fun. Yeah, but so yeah, our our the author editor will and auditor will give us like ideas for the cover, comparable covers in the market right now that they want to like look towards um and stuff. And then I will sketch out ideas, which I don't know if everyone still does this, but I'm very traditional. So I'll like physically in my sketchbook draw ideas and I'll look at other books in the genre for inspiration, and I'll look like on Pinterest, of course, see what's like trending with like keywords from the book. And then for some books, if they want like a really detailed cover of, I'm trying to think of one that I did this for. Um, for a cover like A Curious Kind of Magic by Mara Rutherford that I did, um, they'll I can ask for the manuscript and I'll actually read like a lot of the book and get like real ideas from in the book because sometimes I like to pull a lot of specific symbols, put those on the cover. So sometimes I work reading the manuscript into my process, but some books author has like really clear ideas, so I don't really have to read anything. I just go where they're pointing me. Um, so yeah, I do like physical sketches and then I turn those into digital sketches. Either my two routes I go is like actually illustrating using Procreate or Photoshop on my iPad, or I will do photo manipulation with like stock photos or other photos that we get, and I'll like Photoshop wizard them into something fun and different than they originally were. So those are my two with a lot of like thrillery books these days, we do like photo manipulation and like scary hand lettering kind of vibe. But then with romance books, I'm sure you guys know illustration is king. Like even like romance fantasy, we love to see fantastical illustrations, but then like contemporary romance, we love like a cute couple illustration on the cover right now. So I I do try to do both where I can. But like you mentioned, sometimes we do hire out an illustrator. And so in that case, I'll like sketch ideas for my cover and I'll show them to my editor team, and then we'll like come up with artists that we like find on Instagram or find through agents, or sometimes I even just like see a book covered that I'm like, that's amazing. I have to work with this artist and I'll look them up and contact them. And so in those cases, I'll like we as a team will hire that illustrator. I'll give them my sketches, I'll give them like sometimes the manuscript, any ideas that I have, and then we go through them for like giving us a sketch, giving us a final, things like that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that sounds so fun. How how long does that take? Because I'm sure like if part of that is like, oh, I have to read the whole manuscript, like it would take a long time to come up with the cover. What is your turnaround process and like what do your different deadlines look like?
SPEAKER_00So we start with a cover conference, which is where the editors show us all the titles for the season that's a year out. And then I would say we have about three and a half to four months to have those covers finalized. So it's like, which might seem long to some people, but for me, like three and a half to four months to get art done. And like you said, we get everything has to be approved through, I would say maybe like four rounds of people. And if any of those rounds pushes back, it like goes back to the beginning, and then I have to get it approved by all the rounds again.
SPEAKER_01And you're working on multiple covers at a time as you do this, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Since I'm new, I only started officially as a junior designer in December of 2025. No, 24, because I worked all of 2025. Um, so it's been like a little over a year that I've been an official junior designer. And so I've been getting three to four titles per season. And then my manager Carrie is fully doing like 10, 12. Like she's amazing. I don't know how I'll ever get to that point. But yeah. So like for me, four is plenty to keep me busy.
SPEAKER_01Are there any that you're working on right now that you're really excited about that you're like, hey, put this on your Goodreads TV R. It'll be out next year?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. I I mean, there's one I'm there's a few that I'm really excited about, but I don't know which ones they've like teased yet. Like I don't want to see the title until it's officially out. Um, let me think.
SPEAKER_01Do they change the title a lot because of spacing issues where it's like, oh, this is too long, it won't fit. Like as a layout artist, are you ever like this is this title needs to be three words longer? Or like, like, does it ever work like that?
SPEAKER_00Like, how does it-literally that comes up and the title doesn't get changed often enough, in my opinion? Because yeah, it's like sometimes an author will be in love with their title, and then I'm like, I there's no way. Like, the hardest for me is one long word. When it's one long word, I'm like, what myself's like with the book Moon Sick, which that's like not too long a word, but it is just one word. So I had like a lot of trouble, like, and we wanted it to be like a title-focused cover without characters on it. So I was having trouble making the title like big. So if you ever see the cover of that one, I did, I made it like moon-sick, which we don't always do, but at that one I got approval to do. So I was like, oh, thank goodness. Because it looks so much bigger to have that stacked than like one long eight-letter word. But the one that I'm running into a lot these days is the word necromancers. I've had that in a couple of books, and it's like, I listen, I love a necromancer book, but the that word is so long, and then that's when they don't want me to break up. But so every once in a while they'll change the title for like balancing issues, but not as often as I would like.
SPEAKER_02That is fascinating. See, I was just saying before this started that as a non-illustrator, if you like, I would not have intelligent questions, and I would never I would never in a million years as a writer think, okay, let me not put necromancer in my title because it would not fit on the cover of a book. Like that is of like duh, of course.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that would be hard. No, it's it seems obvious to me, but yeah, it's it's something people don't even think about. And but it is, it's my job to make it look good. So I I do everything that I have to do to make someone's perfect title fit. But every once in a while, it is it is so nice when I get a book that comes to me and it's like four words long and the words aren't very long, and I'm like, oh perfect. This is gonna be so easy.
SPEAKER_02So is it just you? Like you own a cover and you're the designer, or there besides someone that you would hire out, is there anyone else that you work with or are you like owning that cover?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, as far as owning goes, I think as a like official employee of McMillan, the covers I do for them, they own. I do have like credit on every book as the designer. And when I work with an illustrator, if I like provide the sketch idea for them to work off of, and if I do the typography, like um when dealing with dragons, which Maria said that you guys saw, um, I love that cover. But so that one I had reached out to Charlie Bowater to do the illustration, and I gave her like an initial sketch that she obviously took and made amazing. But I gave her that sketch, and then when she gave it back to me, I did all the wording on it. So like the title I created and like wrapped it around her illustration. So in that case, I the credit is like designed by me and then illustration by Charlie. But sometimes if I hire an illustrator and I'm like, hey, we don't have any ideas, we love your style. Here's the book, like sketch something and we'll see if it works. In those cases, I don't even bother putting my name on it. If they do like the typography and the sketch and everything, and I'm just curating, then you know, they get all the credit. But if I go in and micromanage and do the title and stuff, then I like to put our names together. It's like a joint project.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, someone from the outside, that's very yeah. Like, what's the difference between design and illustration? And I think you've explained it really well that like it was your concept, but they're the one that drew it. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00The concept, and and in a lot of cases, the designer is doing the typography. Some really talented illustrators can do both the typography and the illustration. Like, I work a lot with Vera. I'm gonna say her last name wrong because it's so hard, it's very long, but it's like Durmanovsky. I cannot say it right. But she's extremely talented. And when I have her do covers for me, she will hand letter the title and it looks amazing. And so I don't have to do too much when she's helping me out. But a lot of illustrators, they like to focus on just the art and like maybe don't have a design background, and so they, you know, won't touch the title, and so I'm more than happy to do that. Typography is like my first love, and then illustration is my second love, but I love them both.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love some of the hand lettering you had on your Instagram. Um is it so when you say layout artist versus cover designer, is it like you're doing the front, the spine, and the back cover, or is part of that layout, like can you explain the difference between the two jobs and like what other what other jobs you work with in-house to put all of this together?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. So I would say like on my side as cover designer, we do the front cover, the spine, and the back cover. So when I first started as an intern for Millen, I was an intern for like a year and then a contractor for a year, and then now I'm a full-time employee. But when I was just an intern, I obviously wasn't making covers yet. So what you start by doing is we call them mechanicals or mechs. And that's where the cover designers will all like when you're going for approval and showing it to the author and everything, you're just making the front cover, the like six by nine image. You don't worry about the rest yet. And then once it's approved and made it through all the cycles, then it will go to either sometimes that same designer, but a lot of times, like designers under you that don't have as much work to do. Like I said, my boss has like 12 titles, so she can't always set all of them up. So the mechanical would come to me where I would take one of my fellow designers' front cover and I would make the spine based off their design and the back cover based off their design. So when I first started as an intern, I would like go to Barnes and Noble and be like, Oh, I made that spine, I made that spine. And like my my name wasn't on anything anywhere because I wasn't the designer, but I was like showing my family, like, I did this back cover, I did the spine. So that it that's really fun in itself, too. But so that's us cover designers. We're doing the front, the spine, the back, and we are the ones like setting everything up for printing. So, like, or everything on the cover for printing. So, like the effects like spot glossing and embossing and like matte finish versus gloss finish. We have to like work with the production team to make sure all of that is good. But layout design, we usually just call it interiors here. And so interiors is in charge of all like everything inside the book. I never see that stuff at all these days until the book is like printed. And then I'll be like, oh man, the you know, the title page looks so great. I hadn't even seen this. So yeah, interiors is totally their own department. And a lot of the time, as long as the timeline goes well, like right now, I'm having some people in interiors reach out to me where they're like, hey, do you have this cover done? Because like the cover design can influence the style of the inside, you know, design. And so a lot of time they'll be asking me, and if I'm like, no, it's not ready yet, like we don't have anything approved, they're like, Oh, okay, well, I'll just I'll try and wing it for now. You know what I mean? So it's like we are we're all a team that feeds each other. And um, so yeah, interiors does all that. And then I would say the last one that is part of like the design community would be marketing. So whenever we finish covers, we feed them out to marketing, and they're the ones who do like, you know, Instagram posts, they're the ones sending arcs to people to read and everything. They're making like advertisements that have the cover in it. They make things called sell sheets where it has like the cover, all this information about the book, and they send that to bookstores to get them to like, you know, buy copies before it comes out. So marketing does all that stuff after the fact. So us in cover design, we're just doing the physical, like cover spine, back cover. That's it.
SPEAKER_01Is there ever any overlap where it's like, oh hey, you did hand lettering for the cover? Can you hand letter numbers for the chapter numbers on the interior or something like that, where they're like reaching out to you or like, oh hey, we need like a promo image from the same illustrator that you worked with or something?
SPEAKER_00Not too often. What happens most often is once I finish a cover, marketing asks for like the layered files so that they can get in there. And if they want to like pull the illustration and use it somewhere else, they can. If they want, if they want that lettering, like most of the time we'll use a font and so they can pull that font and do it. When I do hand letter, that is where it gets trickier because they don't usually ask me to like write something else and replicate it. My I did the cover for The Thrashers by Julie Soto, and that one has hand lettering, and that was one where like we had a lot of promo for it. That they were like, What's the font you used for the title? And I'm like, No, I hand lettered it. And they were like, Oh, okay, we'll just figure something out. Like, I don't know. No, they didn't have me do anything like that. I and I also had like slightly tangent for the thrashers. That one, I was a contractor when I created it, not a full-time employee. So I do own the rights to that cover a little bit. And so that one has been published in a couple other languages, like at a German publisher and a French publisher. And so they'll reach out to me for the cover design and I give it to them, and then I have to tell them like it's not a font. Like I wrote the title, so they have to change it to the French version or the German version. And both times they didn't have me hand letter it, so I think they figured it out on their own also.
SPEAKER_01So he's got someone to ape it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess so. I'm not sure. I haven't gotten to see those ones printed yet, but I'm excited.
SPEAKER_01Does the author of the book or like the illustrator that you hired, do they have any input? Do they collaborate with you? Or is it a little bit more of like a hierarchy of like you being kind of their art director to some degree or explaining to them how it's gonna happen?
SPEAKER_00No, not at all. I would say the hierarchy is probably editors have like I because I think, well, I mean, I hate to say it's a hierarchy, like none of us are above each other, but like the editors and the authors are working together as a team, usually, and so they'll together have an idea of a cover. And then most of the time I don't have any direct contact with the author. I have contact with the editor, and so I will show my ideas to the editor, and then sometimes it takes a few rounds for just them to approve it. And then once they really like it, then they will show it to the author, like outside of me, and then they'll come back to me with the author's feedback. So the author does have a lot of input in it. Like I would say the editors and the authors have more input than I do, and my and my art director, Carrie. We are often like fighting for like I promise this is this is in the genre, people are gonna love this. And they know what they're talking about. Like the editors have been here for so long, so they're they're very good at being like, you know, this doesn't look big, or this, you know, this one looks more like you know, clickable than this one, things like that or pickupable. Um, so I understand why they're in charge, but no, often we have the least say, like we make the covers, we advocate for the covers, and then it's up to the editor, author to like it. And so once like the editors love it, because the author, once the author loves it, which like that can have back and forth, then we go to the sales team. And sales team is almost the final say. So at the like, we'll have a sales meeting and then a sales conference where this doesn't usually happen. Like, usually once it gets to sales, it's like very done and they really like it. But every once in a while we'll have a cover come to sales, and then sales will push back and be like, we don't like this cover for like this, this, and this reason. And it's like, dang it, like I had gotten the editor and the author on board, and now we literally have to start over, which I think MoonSick was my last one that this happened, where like I went through so many rounds of approval and then it got to sales team and got sent back, and we had to start over. And then you'll never believe this. It gets all the way back to sales team, they approve it, we're all happy, and then it goes to representatives. So, like, sales will now pitch this book to all of their like um contacts they have at bookstores. And then our Barnes Noble rep came back to us and was like, hey, we like this book, but we don't like how the cover looks. If you make it if you make it look more like this, then we'll like pitch it harder. And so then it's up to us like, do we redo the whole cover so that Barnes and Noble will pitch it harder or do we stick to our guns? I think that one we did end up changing it some more because we really wanted Barnes and Noble to push it. Obviously, that's one of our biggest sellers. So that's why to me, I was like, the levels are editor, author, sales, but then there's a secret fourth level of approval that I didn't know about, and that is the like contacts of companies.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, that sounds like so much. Like on average, to give people just a general idea, like how many rounds of edits do you usually do on a cover?
SPEAKER_00I would say for me, probably like four, I'd say three or four. And like to me, that's good. Like three or four is great. Moonsick was probably my record, like I don't even know, 20, maybe like 20 rounds, probably. And what's sad is like in that when I start, I'll make like four or five cover ideas, and like most of the time we'll be like, I like this one's direction, but do like all these changes to it. And so then I'll do another round where it's like, okay, they're all this direction, but they're all different. And so when you have 20 rounds, there are some like good cover ideas in there that just get like killed, you know, or like nixed. And so that's always funny looking back. in my early ones and be like, wait, I love that idea for a cover. Like maybe I can try and use this somewhere else. But no, I would say on a on a good average cover, three or four. No, that's probably that's probably a really good one. Maybe five or six. Maybe five or six is more average, but I'll take that over 20 rounds any day. But usually like by the end, usually once it's been approved by the editor and the author and we're good, it'll be just like a few more rounds of minor changes where they're like, we like it, but maybe this color or can you brighten it up and like pull focus to the title? Those kind of things, which that's like easy. But I do have two covers I'm working on right now that I illustrated and both of them, like on the first round, the editors were like, we like this one, make these changes. And I'm like, hot dog. That's not really nice.
SPEAKER_01It's so nice when you send something to someone and they like one of them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I was really nervous. So once I make those changes it'll go to the author and then I can only hope that they'll really like one of the choices and then sales and reps and everybody.
SPEAKER_01But sometimes it gets really could you tell us a little bit about your use of hand lettering because I noticed you you do that in a fair amount of your covers. Are are there like certain rules that you follow when working on a book that utilizes it?
SPEAKER_00Like what does your process normally look like when you're when you're doing hand lettering specifically instead of a font yeah I mean I think the reason I do it a lot is because of my illustration background and my typography background. I love like physically drawing out my cover ideas and like drawing out the titles when I do that. And so a lot of the time when I show my like manager that she'll be like oh I love how you do the title like just hand letter it rather than finding font. And so especially with like thrillery books right now hand lettered fonts are very like in like they jump out. It gives it like a spooky you know like handwritten like ransom note or something kind of vibe. So that's why all the thriller books I've been getting I always will try out a hand lettered version and then like a regular font version. And yeah it really just defend depends on the vibe of the cover. Cause sometimes the editors and the author team will see it and be like we really like like this font that you used but like maybe give it like more of a handwritten vibe. So yeah it really goes back and forth but then sometimes I'll like draw something and they'll be like we like it but it looks like too young or something like try using this font and that's going to like boost up the age. So yeah it really goes back and forth but I just personally love to like write my own typography and draw and everything. So I I do it as often as I can get away with it. Interesting what you said about like boosting up the age with a font are are there certain like font families that you would say are kind of definitively middle grade YA adult absolutely absolutely yeah exactly so when when we have like say like an adult mystery you know like oh man I was gonna list on a mystery author and now I can't think of anyone but like you know what I mean like the classic adult mystery books they tend to have and thriller books they tend to have like a bold sans serif big title I'm trying to like think of an example of one and of course I'm blinking. James Patterson is the right bam yeah no exactly like a James Patterson where it's like maybe guy running on the cover and like scenery of action like that if you have like a handwritten title it doesn't look as like it's not going to look like normal but when it has like bold sans serif like title in your face you're like okay this is like a thriller book that's one of the things I find most fascinating about typography is like typography even if you don't think about it it does make you think something so like I'm sure if you've probably seen in other places people will use like the Harry Potter font for something. And even if it's like this is a clothing brand but it's like using that font you're gonna see it and be like magic? Why is clothing brand like magical you know what I mean? Yeah and same with like Comic Sands is one people love to like troll on now but that's one that when you see it you think like young you think grade school you think like child friendly because it is like a very child friendly font. So a lot of fonts like make you feel a thing even if you don't like realize that you're analyzing it. And so the same absolutely goes with covers like you can you can definitely like age it up with a really bold sans serif or like obviously if you use a serif that's the one where it has like the feet on the ends and that one that's gonna look old fashioned. So if you have like a super modern contemporary romance book and it has like an old fashioned serif font on it you're gonna be like confused you're gonna be like is this set in like a different time period all these things where you don't realize it but it you are picking up on the vibe of the font yeah I'm wondering if you have thoughts on self-publishing covers and what makes something like why do why can you tell that some covers are self-published like what what do you think self-published authors should do?
SPEAKER_02What rules are they breaking? Yeah what's happening?
SPEAKER_00Yeah I mean that's a great question because I really do think that typography is the key I know that's I'm harping on typography too much but that's I really think the core of book covers. I mean that's what you're good at. Yeah I mean the illustration is so important the imagery is so important but I have seen because I I used to work at Book Logics Publishing which was an indie publisher and so that you know I don't know I was a designer there and I was really trying to like make things look big but that was a whole different process where it with indie publishing it's just usually just the author and then the designer there's no go-between there's no like you're not usually getting other opinions. So a lot of times in indie publishing the author will be like well no this is like I want it to look like this and then you can try and make it look like well designed and like it'll fit somewhere but a lot of indie authors I would say have the problem of like I don't want to say too involved but like they won't let go of their idea for the cover and like trust a designer and I think that's what makes it look smaller sometimes. I've worked with a couple indie authors where they like really trust me and they're like hey you're the designer like here's some ideas but you do what you think is best and they like go with the covers that I give them and in my opinion I think those covers look really great and look make it look much bigger and like one I have a best friend Julie well she goes by JM Fail day of her books that I worked on her cover The Crow Lord and The Sun Child and they I mean those ones she gets so many compliments on those covers I get so many compliments on doing them and she is like an independently um an independent author who does all her own stuff. But I think that us working together like designer and author and her trusting me helped it look a lot bigger because I do I think typography is the key. So even if you hire a really talented illustrator as an author like I was saying not all illustrators like know a lot about typography. So if you like have them do a beautiful illustration but then they just throw the title on it, I think that's gonna look like it's gonna look smaller right away. Which I say smaller and bigger because that's just terms we use in the industry it's not not a bad thing but it's very like oh this is a big book this is James Patterson this is these names that's big or if it's like sometimes independent authors that people don't know as much will say like oh this looks kind of small this isn't you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Yeah no I mean I think even I I think everyone who looks at a book cover can tell it's like reading a different language almost and it's like somehow you speak parts of it fluently and the rest of us are like we can tell this isn't quite right but we don't know or like you said smaller. I like that smaller and bigger like like this was professionally done or this is something that someone put together um with less skill. And yeah that's fascinating.
SPEAKER_00Yeah we live in a time where it's like it has never been easier for non-designers to just make their own like art and covers like with AI and Canva and there's just lots of programs where someone who has no design background can be like well I can do this like here's the image I want and here's the title and boom. And it's like you you'll see the difference like I don't know that's how that's how I feel. So I I advocate for hiring artists and hiring designers who've done this for a long time and they can there's a secret sauce that's hard to explain but they can put that on there and I think give it the professional look that you might be missing if you just make it yourself in Canva.
SPEAKER_01So like if say if there's an indie author who's listening to this and is like oh that's great advice let me hire a a designer specifically to do like the the typography for the image that I want where would you say they should look to find a designer and what price range should they expect and aside from like trust the designer like what would you want them to come in with to make your job easier?
SPEAKER_00Really good questions. I think for I mean I would suggest the ways that I find like illustrators and it goes the same for designers would be Instagram is like the biggest thing right now and look at covers that you already like like that's a really big one. If you I know like a lot of traditionally booked covers like you might not be able to get those designers but just keep looking out for covers that you like contact those people or check out their Instagrams. Most artists will say in their bio like commission's open or something and it literally never hurts to just message any of them and be like hi I have like a I'd love you to work on my cover for this and just see if they're available. I even like in the industry I get lots of no's from illustrators who are just too busy. So don't be afraid of a couple no's like there's so many artists out there that can totally help. So yeah I would say like look every book that you love the cover just like see who designed it see you who illustrated it look them up on Instagram see if they take commissions I would totally like suggest going that way. And then as far as price range I mean we're living in a time where that varies greatly and in recent years it's really gone up unfortunately but the cost of living has gone up so obviously paying illustrators for freelance it's gonna go up. Um I would say usually our budget for paying an illustrator for just like the cover illustration is like two to four thousand dollars for one. So that's like a very normal price range. Obviously most independent authors like have a much smaller budget for what they can do. So I know like me personally I change my rates a little bit if it's like a smaller independent author and if it's someone who I really like want to help support and everything, you know? So I it'll I'll do less than 2000 for sure. But um but yeah just expect that that is about how much it costs for a cover now but it is an investment you know like people do judge a book by the cover and it's the first thing that people see so it you do have to you got to pay those artists sometimes which is why it is tempting to try and do AI or something that's cheaper but I promise you you're gonna regret it in the long run. People are not loving AI covers right now so don't don't be tempted.
SPEAKER_01I'm warning the viewers yes and just a note it is unethical it scrapes from artists without their consent and it is illegal to copyright AI art so anybody could use your image for whatever they want on the cover if it's AI generated. Hey future Maria here with just a quick correction um I misspoke it is not illegal to copyright AI artwork. What I meant to say was that you cannot copyright AI art. There is no way to lay legal claim to AI generated work.
SPEAKER_00Exactly very good.
SPEAKER_01I and then what do you think they could bring to you to make your job easy as easy as possible?
SPEAKER_00Totally. So I mean I the way that we do it I think is the easiest way with like a cover brief which sometimes when I've worked with independent artists who haven't or artists independent authors who haven't done too much like book cover or working with book cover designers I sometimes will give them a blank cover brief and be like you know please give me your book title um give me the genre that your book's going to be in please give me like a two paragraph description of your book um you know describe to me your main characters and what they're like the setting and then for me a really important thing is like comparable covers like show me at least five other covers that you're like I want my book to sit right next to these guys. Like this is my genre the I love the way that these five covers are have been designed. And so that helps a lot with because you know you want to make sure that you're getting that vibe like I was saying with typography and with everything if someone comes to me with like a thriller book I want to make sure that I'm giving them a cover that's going to sit in the thriller section and not be like looking like contemporary romance or something. You know so yeah any description of your book and you know I would love I love getting ideas from the author where they're like I imagine the cover looks like this and is evoking this emotion and I really like pink and green color palette for the vibe of my book like I will totally take all those suggestions. But I will say like be flexible and be like open-minded and to where like when the artist gives you covers, even if it's not exactly what was in your head because that's the hardest thing is when an author's like I can see it exactly in my head I need you to do this, this, this, and this. And then when I try my hardest, they're like it's good, but that's not what I was seeing in my head. It's really hard for an artist to do that. But it's I think the best covers are when you have your idea, the artist takes your idea, makes it beautiful and it's like a blending of your two ideas. I think those are the most beautiful covers. Right because it's it's collaborative.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I do appreciate uh you talking a little bit about uh pricing for freelance I'm wondering for people who are interested in like in-house work at publishing companies and are not like quite sure what to expect or what that kind of job would entail. Could you talk a little bit about like do you work standard hours? What's the salary range? Are there benefits? Like what would people think to expect for a job like yours?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah so I can speak on what we how what how it is at McMillan I don't know how the other big five are the other four um but yeah for us I we are still completely remote. So we have an office in New York but I am currently living in Dallas Texas because we're totally remote um and I I mean we started doing this during COVID and it's just worked really well for everybody. So our CEO really pushed for us to like stay remote um and everyone loves it. So yeah I I work in-house 40 hours a week as a full-time salaried employee. I'll say that my salary is lower than I was expecting when I got into this industry. And I do know other designers who work as a designer in like other um industries not in publishing and they do make significantly more than I do. So I will say that passion is a large part of publishing like I know other people in publishing too where they're like I love this job so much. I do have like a job on the side because I don't get paid enough but I'm here because I love it. So that will would be my one warning to people getting into the industry is like at least where I'm at in it it's not I'm not doing it for the money let's say that way I I definitely I get paid enough to live but not much more than that. So that is why me and a lot of other publishing designers we do freelance on the side and that like helps supplement my paycheck a lot. So so that's its own thing. I'm I don't know I don't want to complain too much because I do love my job and I love my company so I'm not like obviously if it wasn't enough I would just leave the job but I I love what I'm doing. So if people out there have a passion for books and it's what you've always wanted to do, I say absolutely go for it. Get in there but do keep in mind that I don't know that you're not going to be a millionaire doing this job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think we hear that from all sides of the publishing industry right from the editor from editors especially when they're starting out and from authors we you know it's yeah it's something that you love but you definitely should be fairly compensated.
SPEAKER_00So yeah it's yeah it's a whole thing and it's I mean don't get me started on New York taxes because I I am a New York state employee even though I live in Texas where there's no state tax. So I pay New York state taxes. And so oh my gosh it's highway robbery. So anyway that's a whole other thing but no I will we're everything in publishing is just so dependent on the like you know the fan base and the people buying books. So like we have really good years with really good books and then we have not as good years where we didn't have as many like best selling books. And so it's definitely the same for especially independent authors. They're like you know I'm putting a lot of money on this book and if it pops off and goes viral I'm doing great. And if like not as many people are seeing it like oh no I'm still in the red it's definitely I think this is a this is a career for people who are passionate about books and not people who are passionate about having a lot of money.
SPEAKER_01That's fair.
SPEAKER_00Is it the sort of job that you have like insurance or benefits from or is it just the no absolutely so that's why I would say like I I interviewed at other publishers but I really wanted to stay with McMillan because I love McMillan the most out of everyone. So out of the five they're the only ones that are still a privately owned company. So we're not like publicly traded or anything. So it gives us a lot of like the employees still have a lot of control and we're not controlled by like you know, I don't know the stock market or something. But yeah so there's we work 40 hours a week I have great benefits. I have like unlimited sick days um which I'm sure that's just like at your manager's discretion which lucky for me I love my manager. She's amazing. Shout out Carrie Resnick. And so like we I have complete faith and trust in her and I feel like she has trust in me. And so I you know there's never anytime I need days off there's never a no. She's always like yes absolutely like just put it in the calendar you're good to go. Don't even worry about it. And I'm someone who like thinks about work all the time. So I'm very like okay I'm gonna be out this week but if you need anything just message me like don't be afraid to email me. And she's always like absolutely not this is your time off don't even look at your email. I'm not gonna message you and you're gonna be fine and we'll see you next week. So she's very good and and everyone else with I have a we have a whole team at St. Martin's publishing group which we're like a group within McMillan and then we have imprints within this group. So there's I think like 16 of us in this group and everyone is just the best. Like I can ask any of them for help, ask them for anything they're all very like work life boundaries and so a lot of them have kids. So a lot of the time they'll be like hey I have to like leave work early because I need to go pick up the kids and everyone's like yep no problem. Like we're very big on like your life comes first and then work comes second and we want you to like bring that joy that you have in your life to work. So everyone I've ever met at McMillan is very happy to be there. Like none of us are unhappy um and so yeah I don't know everyone I've talked to is just it feel if they say it's a family company and it does really feel like family to me. So that's why I love being here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah oh my God HR pitch they need to yeah I'm like I want to go work for McMillan where line me up McMillan sounds great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah um so for other people who think McMillan sounds great or one of the other big five what advice would you give to someone um hoping to break into the book design industry?
SPEAKER_00Yeah I mean number one advice is how I got in and how the only way I know other people got in is through internships. So I was an intern when I was I think I was like 26 when I was an intern. And so obviously I felt very old. I was like oh no it's gonna be like college students. I graduated like four years ago I'm so nervous to be an intern. But honestly I had been applying to internships with all of the big five since college. So I would say there was a good like eight years that I applied to internships and never got any of them. And then randomly in 2023 I got an email back and they were like yeah let's interview you for this internship and I was like oh my God my first response in eight years and so I will say just don't give up it can take a long time. Um and I guess just in that time I was updating my portfolio and I was working at an independent publisher. So I think I was getting my credentials up and I know a lot of times you think like for an internship you don't have to have experience. It's a cutthroat world it's a cutthroat industry you do kind of need to have some experience when you're when you're doing or applying for internships. But I I do think it's a little bit like a lottery, also, because just so many people apply and there might be so many people qualified, but it is um a lot of the time just one human on the other end going through all these applications and they just pick what stands out to them. So I like you could be doing everything right and not getting that callback yet. You just got to keep doing it and keep trying until yours gets noticed. So I finally got noticed. I had the interview, I got the internship. And so once you were already in that door, then I was able to start like meeting people. It was all virtual, so it was a little slower going, but in the internship program, they do a lot of like, we're gonna have a presentation with all these people from this department and this department. So I was able to meet um a few people virtually that way. And my recommendation to anyone interning who wants to like make it a job, I just started like emailing anybody that I could. Because once you're in the company as an intern, like you have you can see everyone's emails most of the time. So I just started emailing everybody and being like, hi, I'm an intern. I'd love to chat with you about your job. And so I reached out to like designers and all kinds of different imprints. The company, I talked to all of them. All of them are so nice. No one ever said no. Like everyone talked to me, which was great. But all of them were like, Yeah, this is great. We're just not hiring right now. And I was like, okay, I'll like so I would keep all their emails on a list and be like, okay, I'm gonna reach back out in like six months and see if they're hiring then. So that's definitely something I would recommend. But I was just really fortunate that the team I was initially put with was St. Martin's Publishing Group and they're just an amazing group of people. And I really connected with Carrie and her boss Olga, are like two women that I just respect so much. But anyway, I loved working with them. And so when I finished as an intern, I kept in contact with the both of them and was just like, hey, here's what I'm doing. Like, you know, if you guys have anything going on, let me know. If you know anybody, Olga was super sweet, and she like gave me emails of people at other companies and she was like, reach out to these people, like, see if they're hiring, I know this guy, tell them I sent you. So she was an angel. So if you can break in as an intern and make friends with anybody, they will totally advocate for you, and it's so helpful. And so after doing that for a few months, they actually reached back out to me, Olga and Carrie, and they were like, you know, we have room for a contractor right now. So you could work with us as a contractor, which would just be part-time paid role, but you would like get to actually start working on covers. Whereas before I was just doing mechanicals as an intern. So I was like, absolutely, I would love to, thank you. And so I did that for like, I would say like eight months, maybe. Um, and I worked on some covers, loved it, had the best time. And then we had an imprint begin. So Saturday Books was just opened up last year. And so when that imprint opened up, Olga kind of moved over to take over that. So out of Wednesday books, she moved to Saturday Books, and Carrie moved up. And so they told me they were like, now that we've shifted over, we have room for another designer. So, like, my role was kind of created to be in Wednesday Books. And so I was so grateful. Started that of over a year ago, and yeah, it's been great ever since. So, like you said, it's definitely hard to break in, but once you do, it's all about like contacts. You just gotta keep emailing people. You gotta like, once you like make a good connection with someone, keep up with them. Um, like I have people who contact me, and I'm not always great at responding right away, but I will give back to everybody and I definitely help where I can. But yeah, I it's all about contacts and who you know in publishing, unfortunately.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Or fortunately, it sounds like you know some great people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's been fortunate for me, and I've been helping where I can with my other friends who want to get into publishing. But yeah, it's like I said, it's just not uh it's not a one-step, like, I want to get into publishing today. But just don't be afraid to do internships because, like I said, I was older than I thought. And then we have an intern right now who she's almost 30, I think, and she's done a complete career switch where she worked in like finance or something else for like years and years, and then in her 20s was like, you know what? I won't I love publishing and I love design and I'm gonna switch my career. And so now she's interning with us, and so yeah, it's never too late. Always apply to the internships. And if you see like assistant roles, definitely apply to that too. But sometimes those they really want more experience in the role. But yeah, just don't be afraid to apply to everything and don't be afraid to just message someone on LinkedIn. I did that for a little bit when I was job searching, where I just went on LinkedIn and looked at companies I was interested in and then looked at like who's their art director, who's this designer, and just message some of them and see like, are you hiring? Andor could you just meet with me to give me advice? And sometimes that's the best way to just get to know someone, and sometimes they'll keep you in mind, you know, down the line when they do have a job opening.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's great advice. Thank you. Yeah. I I know we don't have too, too much longer, but um I I'd love to close with like, are there any resources from book design classes you've taken or your own work experience that you would want to share to potential listeners working on their own book design portfolios?
SPEAKER_00Great question. I mean, I learned so much from the college that I went to, the Savannah College of Art and Design. That's where I learned everything I know about typography and everything. But I'm trying to think some resources. If you are not like going to college for art, I mean, any Adobe is still a very big part of our design process. So learning the Adobe programs, I think, is very important. A lot of like freelance illustrators just use Procreate, which is great. I use Procreate as well. Great resource. But if you want to get into like typography usage and more design, learning Adobe would definitely help. And there are Adobe classes like just on YouTube. You could just YouTube watch Adobe classes. So I would really recommend familiarizing yourself, especially with like Photoshop, InDesign, and Illustrator. Those are really the only three that I use. So if you just watch YouTube classes on how to do it, um, that's a great resource. I would say another one is, you know, you some designers I've talked to who are trying to get into the space, they're like, Yeah, I really want to do cover design, but I just haven't gotten any, like, no one's hired me for it. Just start making your own cover designs. I know a lot of people that like you just take your favorite books, redo the cover entirely, and be like, here are my ideas for these book covers. People will see that and be like, oh, I love your style. Can you do mine? So don't wait for the job that you want. Like, start doing it today with, you know, whatever skills you have now, and you will get better as you go. Like, especially with InDesign and Photoshop, like those things can be scary, especially if you're just like learning it through YouTube videos. But the more you practice with it and the more you like fail, the better your designs will be in the future. Because it's it's literally a they told us in art school, like you have to do something a thousand times before you're good at it once, kind of a thing. And with logo design, no joke in school, they we would have to sketch 100 logos minimum. You have to sketch 100 different ideas before you can like choose one of them. Because it's just like you have to get all the bad ideas out first before you get to the good ones. So I would just say, you know, practice, practice, start the job you want before you even have it. And yeah, YouTube is, I think, a really great free resource. I use it all the time. Anytime I have Adobe questions, I'm just like YouTube video how to do this in Photoshop. And I just go from there. But but I really loved taking classes with a professor. So if you have an art college near you that does any like graphic design typography classes, I super recommend it for anyone who wants to get into cover design because typography is really important. Oh, well, thank you so much for all the information.
SPEAKER_01Um is there anything else you wanted to jump in with, Suzanne? I think I think we're close to the hour.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, this is I feel like my mind has expanded. And it's funny, Maria uh is, I don't know if you mind me saying this, like starting to get into cover design, and she designed a cover for me from the book that I'm working on. And it was just such a wonderful thing as a writer to have someone put, you know, uh characters to it. So I would say even if you're just trying to get into it, find a writer who is writing something and design their cover, and they'll be eternally grateful because we have no skills of our own.
SPEAKER_00No, absolutely. I I would say exactly the same thing. A lot of my good friends are indie authors, and I've been doing covers for them, and I do feel like it's such a it's like our babies that we connect over. It's their book that they worked so hard on, and I was able to make the cover for it, and it's like a connection that way. So yeah, no, I totally agree. I love a good bestie cover designer and author duo. That's me and my best friend Jay and Fail Day. And I what's, I don't know, it's a great duo. I love it.
SPEAKER_01Thank you uh so much for being here. Thank you so much for all the information. Um, we're uh so excited to have had you. Um, is there anything you want to plug? Is there any any freelance services that you offer? Anything else you want to give a shout out to before we end?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. If anyone who would love to have me illustrate or design their cover, you can check my Instagram is Anto underscore Mart, M-A-R-R, like my last name with a T at the end, Mart. Um and yeah, on there, you can DM me. Um and I, yeah, I would love to help anybody out. I'm always looking for freelance work, even though I am busy with my current work. I every time I see a cover I design, it just makes me smile so much. So I can never have too many. So yeah, check me out on Instagram if you're interested, and I would love to help you out. And if you're just looking to get into the publishing industry on the design side and you're looking for advice, just like I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, shoot me a message, and I'm happy to chat anytime.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's so kind of you. Um, yes, please reach out to Anto. Um, and we will see you guys later. Bye.
SPEAKER_00Hi. Bye.