Publishing Pals
Welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this oddly gatekept, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
Publishing Pals
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Hello!
In this episode we’re talking about the state of the publishing industry, going over a talk and an article on some of the recent imprint closures and changes expected in the coming months.
Here are some of the authors, artists, and other things we brought up during the episode. Just a disclaimer - please do not take our word as fact. The publishing industry is always changing, and often we are talking about things we are remembering from a while ago or have heard from others. It’s always important to do your own research! If we realize after the fact that we have gotten anything wrong, we will do our best to correct it in the show notes.
Here are the links for Lily Ghahremani, the agent from our agency deep dive:
Website: https://www.fullcircleliterary.com/our-agents/lilly-ghahremani/
Querytracker: https://querytracker.net/agent/633
Publisher’s Marketplace: https://tinyurl.com/mr3sdk2r
What the Fact, the nonfiction book that sold based on the pitch the editor was looking for: https://tinyurl.com/bddayhpr
The controversy on Shy Girl, for anyone wondering what the heck we were talking about: https://thedreydossier.substack.com/p/91-percent-human-the-shy-girl-ai
Celebrity Memoir Book Club Podcast: https://www.celebritymemoirbookclub.biz/
The Third Gilmore Girl: https://tinyurl.com/crm84hav
The substack article Suzanne was referencing: https://tinyurl.com/kj97fphd
Hello, I'm Suzanne.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Maria.
SPEAKER_01And welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we've tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this oddly gatekeeped, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry. And I feel like we need to update this to like it's been a decade. It's been a million years we've been trying to get published.
SPEAKER_00It has been a hot second. But I finished the first draft of my book this week, and I'm feeling very pumped about editing and getting it out there. Um I'm feeling very optimistic about things right now before I get any rejections.
SPEAKER_01The hope that springs a turn all before it's crushed like a bug.
SPEAKER_00I feel like every project, I'm like, this is gonna be the one. This is so good. And I like look back at some of my other stuff and I'm like, I could have done better there. This is it. This is this is the one. I feel like I hope so. I'm definitely thinking that is helping me get through editing or will help me get through editing.
SPEAKER_01And I think you're like you're right on trend with a romanticy, like a cozy romanticy.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I feel like this is the first time I've written something, and by the time I get ready to query, it's popular. So I'm feeling very excited about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's never happened to me before.
SPEAKER_00So that doesn't happen to me either. So maybe this will be the time I get lucky. Uh, I feel like there's a bunch of stuff going on in publishing right now. So I we have some articles, I have some webinars, we have just some kind of current update talk that I I don't know, just random useful information too that I thought we'd go over and just kind of make people aware of.
SPEAKER_01Um the state of the industry for little little writers. And also we're about to go to a conference in a few weeks. Yes.
SPEAKER_00We're going to go in an Atlantic SCBWI conference together. Yeah. I'm very excited for it.
SPEAKER_01I well, you know, I don't know if I'm I feel like when we started recording, I was in a really like low place in my perception of the publishing industry. I was really kind of down about it and really um yeah, just pessimistic and cynical. And I think as as the months have gone on, I was starting to feel a little better. And then I'm worried that going to this conference is gonna like send me back down uh into a dark spiral um where I worry about things being not great out there and being confronted with that. I think when you're like in your own little room, just kind of writing, you get that like that hope bubble and you're like, no, this is gonna be great. And then like you go meet with industry professionals and other writers, and you're like, oh no, it's it's hard.
SPEAKER_00Maybe, but I think also doing pitching sessions will help because I think that's a little bit more of like, oh, here's the stuff you know you could work on. It's a little more personalized, it's it's less about you know the industry as a whole. I think there's a fantasy world building thing that I signed up for that I'm looking forward to.
SPEAKER_01I think I I I don't remember if I signed up for that too, but I think we're in like two sessions together.
SPEAKER_00So it'll be fun to see you there. Yeah. And I've never done a pitch session before, so I'm excited about it. We got a little bit of conflicting advice from the two like seminar things that we went to on it, whether we should do our like whole query blurb or just our log line with pitch info. But I think once we finish, I'll I'll at least report with notes.
SPEAKER_01I guess, or I don't know if we should wait until you're back or yeah, because I guess we should mention I'm gonna take a little summer break for a few months from the podcast and try and get some writing done. Um, but we'll be joined by the fabulous Katie Dwyer, who will be hanging out with Maria and talking all things author illustrator.
SPEAKER_00So I think it'll be great. I I'm trying to think of what to call it because originally I was I wasn't counting the number of episodes we'd recorded, and I was like, oh, we could do like artist autumn. Yeah, artist, but now it's gonna be summer, and I'm like, I can't think of any good like alliterations for summer things. So we'll see. Maybe it'll just be called artist autumn in summer. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, we do a little series of episodes that is specifically illustrator heavy, um, since that's what uh she knows and what she has experience in. And I'll get to geek out about art stuff for a while. Um, and then in the fall, we'll be back with Suzanne. I'll say something about the conference when uh when it's over and bring up some notes on it. Um But the stuff that we're looking at today, uh, I went to a webinar presented by Lily Garrimani, and I hope I'm pronouncing that right. She's an agent at Full Circle Literary, and we'll be doing our agency deep dive on her in a little bit. Um, but I went to her recording of 10 game-changing things authors and illustrators should know. And I I think Suzanne, you you read the Substack article. Yes. And I I read it twice.
SPEAKER_01And she also had a related article on middle grade, so lots to talk about from Vicky Weber's article.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I guess maybe jumping back and forth. I feel like overall, a lot, I I don't think they're 10 game-changing things authors and illustrators need to know. I think it's some stuff generally that people should know but is pretty basic. And then there were a couple interesting things in there that I think are definitely worth bringing out and talking about. So one thing she was saying right now is that because the market is so tough, she finds that editors pass on a book, even if it's really well written or really fun, unless it has what she called three windows. So, like three hooks that could be advertised. So, for example, it has um an issue, a trope, an appeal, or a special interest. For example, like you can't just have a fake dating book. You have to have a fake dating book that's about Native American culture and also like has I'm trying to think of of like a thing besides a trope or an issue. Maybe the issue is like social justice or something. And so you you're like combining three different things that could be advertised. And three whole things.
SPEAKER_01You gotta have three hooks now. You can't just have one hook anymore. You have to have three hooks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So it's like this isn't just, you know, like a coming of age story. This is a neurodivergent coming of age story that, you know, is all about teaching kids to cook or something like that. Wow. So um, she said this doesn't necessarily mean that you have to change your book, but that you should change the way that you're pitching and selling your book, where like go through, figure out what tropes you have, like figure out like what's atypical about your character, what could be emphasized about your character that could be used as like a hook or special interest or issue, and then make sure that's mentioned in your query. Even if it's not like a major part, it seems like they may be more confident they can sell it if that's in your initial pitch.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's actually I like that. That's a just kind of a different way of framing the marketing info in your query and kind of thinking it thinking through it from different lenses.
SPEAKER_00I like that. So I talked to a couple people about this and they were like, Yeah, I've heard that. And I was like, oh, well, this was news to me. So let me know if this is news to you. But she was saying uh for your comp titles, you have to have comp titles now published in the last two to three years. And what I had heard was you need to have comp titles published in the last five years. And I was like, I thought it was like a two to three year bigger window. And I'd heard before that like if you have two comps, one of them should be in the last five years, and then the other one can be really specific to your book if it's a great fit. But now she's saying, like, nope, they've got to be two to three years old, which I thought was big news for me.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, I think we've all heard so many different things about comp titles. And yeah, I've heard it doesn't even have to be a book, it can be a movie, it can be a video game, and really you just need to get the vibes across. Um and yeah, I definitely had heard the five years thing. It's it's that's tough. And and and then saying it so prescriptively because there are these rules, but everybody knows that the rules are meant to be broken. So is that one of the ones that you can break? And how if it's four years old, is that I mean, really? I think if someone's I think if someone's looking that closely at your comp titles and using that to make a decision about whether or not to request pages, then like that's a great sign. Is there if that's the one thing that they're like, oh wait, no, her comp title is four years old, not three years old. I I can't I cannot request this these pages.
SPEAKER_00There's um one of the comps that I'm planning to use when I query will be five years old when I query. And the other one is two years old. So I'm like, oh gosh, am I like, do I need to find another comp? Like, I thought this one fit really well.
SPEAKER_01And that's also assuming, you know, the agent in the 30 seconds that they're reading is putting that all together in their head. Yes, that is familiar with it's familiar enough with your comp titles that they know exactly when they were published.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I guess maybe that one's not as strict. Um one thing she was talking about is how uh hiring stuff for IP is on the rise. So I guess what that means is that they're they're not taking pitches from authors, but they're figuring out what the sales team thinks will sell and then finding a writer to write it. But the writer doesn't get to keep the copyright, they get play paid like a flat fee and they don't retain any royalties. So it's like ghostwriting, but your name is on it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, that's essentially what I did for a book packager. So I've definitely heard too that you know some agents do that. I don't know if it's getting more common or people are just getting more aware.
SPEAKER_00She said it was on the rise. So um, but I do want to specify that I looked her up and she specializes in nonfiction like a lot more. And so I don't know like how much of this is prevalent because like finding someone to write a nonfiction book, it's like, oh, who is vaguely a specialist in this field. Whereas like I feel like fiction novels, I don't know if that would be different or if it would be the same throughout.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I'm not as familiar with the nonfiction process and how you would, you know, pitch it to a writer. I mean, I've definitely heard that for fiction, if something comes up and an agent becomes aware that, you know, a publishing house is looking for an IP writer that they then pull from their pre-existing, you know, client list and say, oh, I think this is a good fit for so and so. And I know they're open to doing, you know, IP work. But yeah, from the nonfiction side, I don't know. So that's interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, I guess it's easy to sell though if you have someone who's a good fit. She was talking about how uh an editor had said, I don't know what the platform they said it on, or if it was like a social media thing, that um they were looking for something on media literacy. And she had a client who was a journalist. And so she was like, Oh, you would be great to write this. And then she got in touch with the editor and like pitched it, and they had a book deal within a week, she said. Um, which is a like very, very fast for publishing.
SPEAKER_01So I guess and also the benefits of writing non-fiction that you can sell on a proposal and you don't have to have the book already written.
SPEAKER_00That's true. Although with editors, if you're already agented, I don't know if that changes.
SPEAKER_01I don't know, but there this is like a totally tangent, but it's reminding me of this uh plot line that's happening on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills right now. Okay. Where um is there any Real Housewives of Beverly out there? One of the ladies, Derit, is writing her memoir and she's working with a ghostwriter, but she has not written the book, but in the um in the show, she's uh had her photo shoot for the cover, and she's now done a cover reveal without a book being written. And as an author, just watching it, I'm like, that's not how this is supposed to work, right? Like you don't get to reveal your cover before you've written the book. But apparently you do. Apparently, if you're a real housewife of Beverly Hills, you can not write the book, have a fabulous cover shoot, have your publisher ostensibly pay for this fabulous party in an amazing location with others like showing all this food and this champagne. And I was like, who's paying for this? And like, you know, I think they're just different roles for different people. So this no, it's it's good to know. It's good to know that it doesn't work the same for everyone, and you should be aware. I'm so curious. Is this like a traditional publisher that it's being published? Yeah, I think it was um was it Pendium or Podium? I'm I'm not remembering. It's I think Pendium. Um her the name of her memoir is Um Un Unburdened by Dari Townsley.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I mean, she doesn't sound like a burdened woman, so it it sounds like a good title.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, by the time this episode airs, it will be out. I assume is well, maybe not. It's coming out June 2nd, 2026. Oh, by podium. Okay, not Pedium. Podium publishing. Um so yeah, you you can do things however you want.
SPEAKER_00I'm pushing for her. If she can pull that off, she's got the audience for it. You go, girl.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna be so interested to see how this book sells. Because it seems like definitely the publishers like they gave her this huge advance, and she's been flaunting this. Uh I don't even I don't know anything about handbags, but like apparently very expensive handbag that she purchased with her advance, and everyone's like, oh my god, you got this Kelly bag with your advance.
SPEAKER_02Are you gonna read it?
SPEAKER_01Am I gonna read it? No, it's gonna be readable. No. No. Um unless people I like I I'll be curious to see what the reviews are when it's out. Because there's another podcast um that does celebrity memoirs and they like go through the celebrity memoir. So I may see what they think of it. Do they are they mostly bad? Uh no, I don't I don't think they're I guess bad is an unfair term if you're writing about your life. Like I guess I'm just not really super I don't think she's a very honest person. I'll just put it that way. Like on the show, her character that she portrays is not particularly open and honest. So I don't know how illuminating her memoir is gonna be if she's already on a reality show and yeah, you're supposed to be sharing about your life, and and like I'm not really interested to know more about your life. But she has fans, so I'm sure I believe that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, read a lot of celebrity memoirs, but I read I read Kelly Bishop's um the third Gilmore Girl memoir last year, and I liked that one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There are definitely some I want to read. Um I just have to be like you have to be like in exactly the right mood to spend spend some time with one specific person and their life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel like memoirs are like kind of hit in this where like I I don't always finish them and I don't have a lot of DNFs, but when I do, it's it's usually like very it'll be like a voicey, like nonfiction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I just finished Virginia Giffre's memoir, Nobody's Girl, and that was intense. So I think I need a memoir. Memoir, but that was like I felt I felt like it was important to read it, but it was definitely difficult to read it. Um she had a very hard life. She was the main um, I guess, kind of face of the Epstein victims.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay, yes.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, she was trafficked by um Jeffrey Epstein and Delaine Maxwell as a teenager. And then as an adult, she was very brave and you know kind of rallied, you know, rallied with the other victims and got justice in in whatever whatever kind of justice they could find at the time. So and yeah, then she um committed suicide before the book came out. So it was posthumously published. Um so even knowing that it's hard too that you know she's talking in the book so much about her struggle and how hard she's working to, you know, get through these horrible things that happened, and then to, you know, like it's almost like you're you know something she didn't know at the time that she was writing. It it's it was really sad.
SPEAKER_02It is sad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Publishing can publish some very different kinds of memoirs. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00We'll see if Dorit's memoir is uh Yeah, I think it's an important memoir to have been published. Like I'm I'm glad it's out there. Um it's just very sad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I'm not expecting to read Kelmsley's memoir to be moving and um but who knows? Who knows what Darit's life has been like before Real Housewives with Beverly Hills. You never know. You never know. I shouldn't, I should not be so quick to judge.
SPEAKER_00All right. Uh let's see. Some other things. Um, a big thing she was saying is that AI um precautions and on both sides, both the publisher and the agent team side, are becoming a huge issue and looking for certain things in contracts and things publishers are trying to sneak in. And she's a former lawyer and she was talking about how she'll read through contracts and sometimes see like small things that they've snuck in before to go to sign stuff. And some things they're doing is um wanting uh uh authors to sign away um rights to their author voice, which implies it, it's not explicitly saying, but it's implying that AI might be used to write stuff in your voice and that you can't sue on those grounds, which is a huge red flag. Um, they also um are working in clauses for like using your book for AI training, um, you signing away um permission to use AI narrators for audiobooks, um, AI covers for the art, and AI translations to other languages. And it's not every publishing company that's doing this. Some of them are very anti-AI. In fact, for the sake of copyright reasons, because you can't copyright something that's AI done, um, there are a number of clauses um saying that, you know, like when you sign this, you're attesting that none of this work was made using AI in any way. And, you know, you have to like promise and sign that before your book is officially sold. So I don't know, it's I I'm I have like a mental list of stuff that I would love to have in a book deal or like publishing places that I would love to sell to, you know, like when I get there. And I feel like it's becoming like, okay, I don't want to sell to a publishing house that's really pro-AI. Um, she was saying that some AI companies are approaching publishers and trying to get them to sell the rights to their backlist books that like aren't in necessarily being printed anymore and didn't necessarily do well, so they can train AI on there. And since a lot of those authors didn't know to include AI clauses in their contracts, there's nothing protecting those authors from like just having their backlog signed away, which sucks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that seems like yeah. How do you how do you stay ahead of something that's changing so fast?
SPEAKER_00I know. And it's like it's so lean and just kind of like backhanded. It it makes me really mad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, good to be aware of. I know, and I know like I think they mentioned like some some AI stuff in the the Substack article too, right?
SPEAKER_01Um not a ton.
SPEAKER_00Because there's like a comp I'm forgetting which publisher it is, and I don't want to say the wrong one, but there is like a publisher that is making AI shorts based on author's work without asking them.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I had not heard of that. I don't think that's in this article we're gonna talk about, but um it starts with an H, the publishing company, I think.
SPEAKER_00I'm looking it up.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00When I'm searching for like AI shorts without author permission, like it's just coming up with a million hits on Shy Girl, which is like its own bag of worms. Oh, it's Harlequin. Okay. Harlequin just paired uh like with an AI shorts company for its romance videos.
SPEAKER_01For videos, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's like based on based, you know, like to advertise books, they're making AI videos of these characters using, I'm sure, art that is scraped from artists who didn't give their permission to have this made, as opposed to people to actually do promo art and actually like create a cool video and they look creepy. I don't know. I I and I've heard that they're you know, they're pro AI, and I just I think it's so creepy and I think it's unethical, and I don't like it. And I don't like Harlequin is great as like a romance publisher, but I'm feeling very icky about them now because of this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I that's interesting because I wonder if it's one of those things where they're like, Oh, well, we couldn't do this for everyone before because it costs so much money, and now because You know, AI is so fast and so cheap. You know, we can make these amazing promo videos for everybody's book because that's just something we can do now. And so they're probably trying to frame it as a positive. And I'm sure within the company. Well, you know, as someone who's got a day job is pushing really hard to use AI, AI, we can do everything more, better, faster. Like it's coming, so figure it out. Like, I definitely see the the workings of that in this of like, how can we use AI in a positive way? Like, how can we use it to support our authors and you know, do more for them? So on the one hand, I can see where they're coming from if they're using it for videos that they wouldn't have normally done, for promo for their existing authors that they are paying. But I agree, it's a slippery slope. And then what about the artists that aren't getting that that work?
SPEAKER_00And they're but they're doing it with stolen art is what really gets me. Yeah. It's it's like it's not that these artists consented to have their work scraped. They weren't paid, they weren't compensated, they weren't informed.
SPEAKER_01I feel like I guess we don't know. Like, is Harlequin only using their backlog of you know, cover art that, you know, there's no way are they doing it ethically?
SPEAKER_02I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Like to get generative AI to do what you want, you have to have such a huge library in order to make it work at all.
SPEAKER_01Like maybe that's why it looks so creepy, is because I I I I believe you, and I I am yeah, I support that.
SPEAKER_00I don't know if the image in the article to just just disclaimer, I don't know if the image in the article I just looked at is a screenshot from it or if it's just an AI generated inspired image. Because I haven't actually seen the short. I just looked at the pictures that were in this article, but the pictures looked creepy. Yeah. Um I'm feeling very thanks. I hate it. But I'm glad that agents are fighting against AI. I'm glad that they're there are agents who are going to read through every single contract edit and make sure that's not snuck in and that it's not okay for them to be doing this. I'm glad that there are lawsuits against stuff like this happening, even though I don't think they're paying the authors enough and they're not shutting this down. But I I think there are very good things that are happening legally with stuff with AI. And if they continu like if laws continue to be passed that continue to make this sort of stuff illegal and like legally not okay, as well as just, you know, ethically not okay, like open AI has said before, like they can't they're gonna be bankrupt if they can't steal from people. Like they're not a sustainable company and they they're creating a lot of debt. Like this is not a sustainable thing that they're doing. And I think the more people are very clear and open that this isn't okay, the more it's it's not going to be pushed through. Cause I think the second you know, publishers start releasing AI covers, AI promos, AI, you know, written content, and people are just fine about it, that's when we've lost. So as long as people continue to boycott things that are AI, to like comment that this isn't okay, et cetera, and to voice that, I feel like, you know, then it it continues to not be profitable and they're just going to stop doing it eventually.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I think I have hope too that AI is not at the place where it can replace a human yet. And maybe the push to get there, like you said, is just takes too much resources and you know, people are pushing back against the data centers and against the content itself. And yeah, I'm I'm I'm feeling like we're gonna hit some kind of ceiling and it's just gonna be like this isn't actually, you know, it has its uses. You know, there's some, you know, I work in the medical field and there's some just amazing things that it can be used for, like in the medical fields that could really, you know, change and improve people's lives, like trying out new medicines and you know, looking at new protein structures and stuff like that. So I want to be like, AI is totally bad, but I do think for the creative space, I I really hope that it's gonna kind of fizzle out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think there's a big difference between AI and generative AI. And if AI wants to, you know, like look at protein cells, I'm not gonna do that for fun. Like, do the stuff that no one wants to do. Like, that's fine. Yeah. I don't get worked up about a ton of stuff, but I get very worked up about that. It just bothers me, man.
SPEAKER_01I know we were talking about like if we wanted to do an episode on Shy Girl and the like AI controversial, and you're like, no, I don't think there's enough to say around that. I'm like, I feel like we could just fill up a whole event.
SPEAKER_00I I think we could go on a rant about it. We'd do an episode later. Oh my god. Um but yes, uh, a couple of things, just getting back on track, uh, a couple of the other things she was saying. There was a point she was making that I didn't think was as as relevant or as universally helpful. But what a couple of the specifics she talked about within that point was um that uh agents are working on like uh the specifics of options for your next book within your contract. And that's sometimes why it takes so long, because they're trying to get you as much as possible, because the more specific you get, the more freedom you have. So for example, she said, um, you know, if a publisher is getting an option for your next book, and that so correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm pretty sure what an option is is that you sell your book and your second book, you have to send to them first. And then only if they reject it can you send to other people. And I don't know if that means that if they offer, you have to accept the offer, but you at least need to wait for them to make the offer and let them get their foot in the ring.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm I'm pretty sure if they have the option, they just get to say, like, if they want to publish it, they're publishing it. I don't think you can take it anywhere else.
SPEAKER_00I could be wrong, but that wouldn't you want to be I so I guess it's just like you either take their deal or you walk away and they can offer you whatever they want, even if it's not very much.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, I don't know about the financials of it.
SPEAKER_00I know because that seemed really weird and unfair. And it wasn't explained. I mean, it wasn't the point she was making. I wasn't expecting her to explain, but um I don't know. One thing she said was that uh putting things in the contract so that they're not just sitting on your book, because oftentimes, you know, they'll sit on it for a long time before they pass, and then you know, maybe the market's in a different place and then you kind of lose out. So saying things like, we'll option you your book for 30 days, um, and you have until then to respond, and then we can send to other people, or um, we're allowed to submit to other publishers while you're looking at the option. And then if you choose to pass, we might have other offers by then. Um, like if you offer them, we'll go with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm looking it up and I think I was wrong that yeah, they they get to make the offer first, but you can submit after they make their offer.
SPEAKER_00Okay. That's good to know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, she was talking a bit uh about that and just talking about how like um yeah. Just just talking about how the more specifics you can put in so that nothing feels general, um, but there's like a bunch of stuff in your favor that stipulates a lot of things that you know don't hold you up for a really long time or don't prevent you from selling to other publishers while you're working on something with them. For example, if you can't sell, you know, any fantasy work for two years while this publisher has your fantasy book, you can specify like, okay, well, we can't sell uh, you know, a middle grade fantasy for two years. But if the author writes a YA or an adult fantasy or if they write a graphic novel, then they could sell it to someone else because it wouldn't be in the same competing market or something like that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh, to have those problems. I know, right? Right.
SPEAKER_00Um and then that was the whole webinar. And then there was a QA, and she um she had a couple interesting things to say. And I'd I was only able to do the first 30 minutes of the webinar, and I typed in some questions, and then I had to log off and go to work, and I downloaded the recording later. And she did answer one of my questions, which was what are some non-obvious questions to ask on an agent call to ensure a better fit? Because she had this whole thing where she was talking about how important it is to have the right agent and an agent that's gonna be the best fit. So the things she said to look for were to read their enthusiasm and to go with someone who's seems super, super excited to ask what changes they want to your work, because some people sign with agents and then realize that they want the whole thing rewritten and aren't open to that. Um, but one of the points she made was be open to revision stuff. Um, ask to interview another client of theirs because if the person says no, then that's a huge red flag that they don't want you talking to other people they're repping. Um, and then just asking newer agents about their path to mentor uh to agenting and make sure that they have a mentor or someone who's helping them with sales. I guess there, I have one more thing that's kind of a downer. Do we do we want another downer or is that another one?
SPEAKER_01Let's do it, yeah. Let's go, let's go full downer because I feel like the article I'm gonna talk about is kind of a downer. So let's go there. All right.
SPEAKER_00We'll just do a downer. Don't try and laugh about it. Um, okay, last downer. She was talking about how it used to be that if you published a book and it didn't do well, you could switch to a different age category or genre. And sellers, like booksellers wouldn't worry about that so much. Like the publisher would be like, oh, well, you sold a horror, you know, two years ago, but it was YA. So we're not going to look at that sales data because you're doing adult now. Now they do look at it. And if your book hasn't done well at all for any reason, it's a reason for them not to say no because they're being so much more selective about what they're publishing. Um, and so she was talking about how like you need to start when you pitch your book, if you know that you had something that didn't sell well, you have to come in with a caveat of why it didn't sell well to explain an underwhelming performance so that you have a chance of selling your current work. Which is wild.
SPEAKER_01Well, that actually segues nicely into this article from Vicky Webster uh on her substack, My Literary Life, uh, called What Nobody's Telling Querying Writers, which is an ominous title. And one of her points um was that sales data follows you, that uh publishers right now are really looking at your track record and your sales data, whether it's traditionally published or self-published, is gonna follow you. And um yeah, that it could be what makes or breaks your success in getting a deal, which is which is so nerve-wracking.
SPEAKER_00I feel like it used to be, you know, it's like, oh, you know, if you self-publish, you know, like maybe you'll sell a few coffees, it'll feel good, it'll be exciting. But like you don't have to worry about it following you long term. It's just like a thing that you've done.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Um, so her article is pretty short, but I think um it's I I think it was very honest, which was really nice. I think you know, we've both had the experience of like people in the industry trying to be like, okay, it seems like it's bad, but like, no, really, it's gonna be fine. And you know, we as writers are like, it feels really bad. Like, this seems really bad. It feels like it's bad, guys. Yeah, she's like, no, guys, actually, I gotta tell you it's real bad. Which, you know, fair. Um, she talks about how Baker and Taylor, the book distributor, there were only two book distributors, Ingram and Baker Baker and Taylor, um, and Baker and Taylor just shut down um and filed for bankruptcy. Um, and also that Dial Books for Young Readers imprint also closed.
SPEAKER_00It's been around since like the 60s or something, something crazy like that. They have a bunch of award winners.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, and apparently Roaring Brook also closed. So, you know, the news that like imprints are closing, distributors are closing, you know, the industry's contracting, like there's you know, sales are down, like blah, blah, blah. Like it's bad.
SPEAKER_00But imprints are also opening, like they open and shut a fair amount. Like, I I know Tor just opened a new imprint for like crossover, and uh Dio One, I think, is being absorbed by Putnam. Um, and it it remains to be seen if they're gonna open a different imprint.
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, it could just be things are kind of shifting, and right now it feels like you know the news is all bad. Um, but I think she's saying like things are like it's not like everybody's doing great and everybody's making money, you know. No, things are closing down, things are shifting, and um, you know, you're not you're not hallucinating, like people are acquiring less. And you know, you as a writer need to just be aware of that, but it's tough out there, and in some ways it's better it's like it's not you. It's like the economy sucks. Yeah, and and also the point of yeah, when the economy goes down, books are discretionary spending, so it feels essential for some of us, but you know, people may be turning to their libraries more and spending less on books, and that is gonna have an impact on everything from bottom the bottom up. So um, and she also you know made the point that you know, when editors get laid off, then other editors have to take on that work, and so they're overworked and they aren't able to acquire as much because they're handling more workloads. So it's just a lot of different things kind of going on that are all contributing to it feeling like it's harder for writers to break through, um, especially if you're a debut writer or um yeah, don't have a big platform. So um she had three points of what writers should know right now. And she, her point number one was that you might want to take a look at your agent query list and just make sure you're kind of keeping on top of that because some agents are leaving the industry. Um, and so yeah, don't get your heart set on like one agent because they may not stay in the industry. You need to be open to um to what's going on. Um and then her second point was one we already talked about, which is that sales data follow you, um, which even if you're self-published, which was like we said, kind of a new thing. And then um that platform is really important, especially in nonfiction, um, but also for fiction too. So it does make a difference. They used to say, oh, it's it's nice to have, but now there's they're seeming to say like you really need to have that built-in audience so that people know that someone wants your book.
SPEAKER_00And I know it's making me feel uh very grateful that we have a podcast about this. It's potentially like some small audience.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, they she was saying too, like the audience doesn't necessarily need to be like on social media. It could be a newsletter, it could be a blog, it could be a podcast, it could be, yeah, wherever you're five, you know, finding your people to be, um, which for most people I would assume is on social media. But like I've said before, I'm not even on social media right now. So um Top Cookies serve people like me who are trying to get away from the evils of social media, and then feels like it works against you as a as a writer to not be out there. Um so yeah, but now Substack's an option, and I mean I feel like, you know, just gonna stay on top of it.
SPEAKER_00And yes, I'm here, but I think you're you know, just being involved in the writing community and consistently like, you know, like being there and and knowing people in the industry helps a lot for just, you know, maybe having other people post about your book when it comes out. And yeah, true, true. So knows it's important to buy debuts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but also thinking too, like you can be a little creative with your audience too. You don't have to feel like it has to be all one thing or all the other. If if social media is not your thing, you can try and think of another way you can build an audience, which yeah, to me that was kind of hopeful. Like, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and no platform for building an audience is worth your mental health. Like if it's bad for you, it's it's bad for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think too, like when you write children's books, you know your actual audience isn't on social media either. So it's a little different. So then she kind of moved into like where do we go from here? Um, and she just had just some thoughts on where she thought the industry was going. And um as she says, this is 100% her opinion, but as someone you know entrenched in the day-to-day event, I think that's valuable to hear.
SPEAKER_00Um, have we said who she is? Do we know her credentials? Yeah, probably.
SPEAKER_01Vicki Weber, she's an agent at somewhere. Maybe you can look that up for me.
SPEAKER_00I'm looking it up right now. She's at Creative Media Agency.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. And I I think I've queried her before. She just seems really nice and open and very honest. Like I think she would be a great agent to have.
SPEAKER_00Um looking at her website, she's got a great smile. She looks very cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um okay, so where she thinks things are going is that self-publishing is gonna grow and that that's gonna be where a lot of people find themselves. Um and hybrid is also gonna grow. And um and then her final point was that yeah, the industry is tied to the economy, so we can't really expect things to get much better until the economy turns around. So um yeah, that was kind of the honest, refreshing article, I think, that uh our coaching partner Jeannie shared with us. And we were both like, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00I needed a few days to decompress from that before I wanted to talk about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel like saying it out loud doesn't seem as scary, but I feel like when we both when we both read it, we were like, someone's finally saying it's bad.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_00But I feel like there's a big difference from like huddle up in bed at night under the covers reading this like as an article on my phone versus like hanging out with a friend and discussing it. It feels a little less scary.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is a lot less scary. Um, and she also had another um article on her substack about middle grade specifically.
SPEAKER_00Just what's happening with middle grade? Because I feel like a few years we went to that conference together and the whole like middle grade talk was like no one wants it.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, so that I think that like I said, I was like really depressed because like you could go to these things and they'd be like, middle grade is so bad.
SPEAKER_00Like middle grade, and they're like, well, stop. And yeah. So they were very sweet people. I I don't mean to disparage anything.
SPEAKER_01But no, that was the basics of it. Like, so sorry if you're a middle grade writer, maybe you shouldn't be one.
SPEAKER_00But it's been a few years since then, so I'm excited to see what they're saying now about it.
SPEAKER_01Uh, it has not gotten better. So her the title of this article on her Substack is Middle Grade is quote unquote dead. And I think that's good news. I have to say, after reading the article, I did not think that was good news.
SPEAKER_00And hey, why does she think it's good news?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's that's my problem. So she's saying the things that all middle grade authors have probably heard that, you know, literacy's down, the children aren't reading. But her um thing was that everybody's saying middle grade is dead, and and like the long middle grade, Harry Potter, you know, that kind of part of middle grade is dead. Like nobody wants that anymore. Nobody wants your 70,000-word fantasy right now. Um, but she said, but what is doing great is graphic novels. So if you are writing graphic novels like Maria, good for you. Because people still want that. And that um, yeah, that basically they want shorter word counts, more illustrated, easier to digest for the children. Um, which fit like, yeah, there needs to be books for all levels of readers, you know, from from the smallest to the ones who are trying to read, you know, Jane Austen as a 12-year-old. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and one thing I've I've heard is that like a lot of the COVID kids who learn to read during the pandemic, it like that set their reading levels back a lot and they're getting middle grade. That's the reason for this. So when you know, like two to three years, you know, you'll get the kids that are a little more literate than the poor COVID babies. And it's the that toughness will move to but like YA and YA will need shorter word counts for a while.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So um I think the interesting thing about this article was that it she was she was saying something that I think if people have been saying for a while is that, you know, middle grade books need to be shorter. There needs to be a wider range of word count, they need to be, you know, more geared towards what the kids want and what the librarians are saying that the kids want. I think I've seen on social media for a long time that the librarians who work with kids every day are saying, like, these are not the kind of, you know, you're giving us books that like these kids do not want to read. Like they're not interested. They want to read about basketball, they want to read about baseball, like they want, you know, exciting cupcakes, like they want, you know, fun books for kids. And I think people were handing them these like really heavy, issues driven, like 60,000 word novels, which for some kids is exactly what they need. Like you were writing the book for that kid that needed that right then, but that across the board, um You know, the industry needs to respond to what the kids want and need right now. And publishing moves really slowly. And so, you know, now publishing is kind of like getting the message and it's like, oh, I think you're right. Like we want to sell, you know, we want to sell more books. So let's make them shorter books. And so it seemed like from this article that she was saying that it was lagging, but that editors are finally coming around to figure it out that that they're going to start requesting shorter books. So if you're a middle grade author, try and write a shorter book and also know that you're probably not going to sell it.
SPEAKER_00So you don't have to be an illustrator to be able to sell something that's illustrated. Like Last Kids on Earth is highly illustrated, and that was big. And you know, like it's highly illustrated. But the I is the author an illustrator actually? No, I feel like I'm crazy. But I I guess my point is like there can be books that are novels and not scripts for graphic novels that have a lot of drawings in them. Yes.
SPEAKER_01But I think you need to go, you know, you need to go into it knowing, okay, this is this is a book that will translate into highly visual, you know, illustrations on every other page. And um I don't know that there's a lot of guidance out there on how particularly to do that. Um, or you know, what would kind of translate best into a highly illustrated um middle grade book if you're not already an illustrator and already kind of thinking that way. So I think for writers it's something new to kind of be like, oh, let me come around to this, you know, way of thinking and be like, okay, let me let me try and tailor my idea towards the market a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'm not crazy. It is a different author illustrator. It's uh author Mac Brawlier and then illustrator Douglas Holgate.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, that was kind of the the download from uh Vicky Weber's Substack, which I think, yeah, we both were like, ah.
SPEAKER_00Well, thanks for listening and laughing with us. That's all you can do, really.
SPEAKER_01As we share this horrible, horrible news for you all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're gonna go to the conference and have a lovely time. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. Um I know we've been going for a minute, but we should we do like a super quick agency deep dive? Yes. Um, so I pulled up info for uh Lily Garamani, who's the agent from the webinar that I watched. And she does, like I said, a lot of nonfiction. All her stuff that she's ranked in is nonfiction. She has 16 in nonfiction lifestyle, 35 in nonfiction reference, and 45 in nonfiction how-to. And she has sold like a middle grade and a couple picture books, um, but that's not what she's ranked in. And her two things that she um has six-figure deals in, one is nonfiction and one is actually a graphic novel, um, which which seems like fiction. So I guess she just got got lucky because graphic novels are big now, I guess. She's had a lot, a lot of deals. She's been around for a while since like 2005, it looks like. She's been at Full Circle Literary like the entire time. So if you're looking for someone who wants to rep your nonfiction who seems super stable, who seems consistent, who is a former lawyer who used to do contracts, uh, she seems like the person. Uh, she's currently close to queries, but she said um in the webinar that starting in May, she's gonna be open. And I think this is gonna be published um in June or July. So by the time you guys listen to it, she may still be open. Uh and you can rush over to her query inbox.
SPEAKER_01I feel like it's a great thing to have in an agent is someone with a law background because it's all contracts and yes, you know that that contract's gonna be tight.
SPEAKER_00Yes. She's gonna get your AI rights button down. Yes, absolutely. Um, she I think it's funny, she calls herself a recovering lawyer in her bio. Um and uh she's uh worked with illustrators. She's done a lot of picture books in the past, um, but again, nonfiction is mainly her jam. But it looks like she's looking for um uh some stuff in fiction. Her current wish list, though I don't know if she's gonna update it before she opens for submissions, is um she wants uh illustrators from lesser represented cultures, um because she does author illustrators, um, worldly children's books and art, children's books that infuse traditional cultural wisdom in a modern relatable way, children's nonfiction books by experts, uh funny but smart picture books that surprise her, books for kids of any age that center around disabled characters without being about the disability, high concept gift books and picture books, middle grade, MYA with Middle Eastern characters settings and themes. Any like last words before you go for a few episodes?
SPEAKER_01Wait, what would you like to leave us with? I'll be back in the fall and we'll see if um things are any better. We'll check back here and we'll read some more articles that won't be as depressing, hopefully.
SPEAKER_00We'll come back to a booming industry and a rebounding economy. Yes.
SPEAKER_01We'll end on a hopeful note. Um yeah, I I will miss talking to you on the podcast, but well, I'll murmule you a bunch. Yeah, we'll talk not on the podcast, but um yeah, I'm hoping to get a lot of writing done and come back maybe with I don't know, something ready to query. That's the dream. Although um, you know, life has a way of good.
SPEAKER_00Like maybe we can do some virtual writing strengths or something.
SPEAKER_01That would be fun. And yeah, I hope all of our our our wonderful listeners have a wonderful summer and have much success and happy writing. And don't get don't let this get you down. Stay, stay positive. Yeah, stay positive.
SPEAKER_00Good luck out there.
SPEAKER_01Good luck out there. All right.
SPEAKER_00Bye, guys. Bye.