Publishing Pals
Welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this oddly gatekept, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
Publishing Pals
The Picture Book Pipeline
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Hello!
In this episode we’re talking about the Picture Book Pipeline! The steps from when an agent sends out your picture book dummy, to when your final art is turned in.
Here are some of the authors, artists, and other things we brought up during the episode. Just a disclaimer - please do not take our word as fact. The publishing industry is always changing, and often we are talking about things we are remembering from a while ago or have heard from others. It’s always important to do your own research! If we realize after the fact that we have gotten anything wrong, we will do our best to correct it in the show notes.
Here are the links for Marie Lamba, the agent from our agency deep dive:
MSWL: https://manuscriptwishlist.com/mswl-post/marie-lamba/
Agency page: https://www.jdlit.com/marie-lamba
Website: https://marielamba.wordpress.com/
Also, I forgot to say while recording, but she’s ranked #16 in digital fiction: horror and #48 in MG nonfiction on Publisher’s Marketplace
Link to Tracy Shaw, the art director whose lecture we were referring to: https://www.tracyshawdesigns.com/
Suzanne’s book, Another Enchanted April:
And her publishing company, see-saw press:
Cindy Derby:
https://www.instagram.com/cindyderby/
I think this may be the podcast interview that was mentioned:
Hello, I'm Katie. And I'm Maria. And welcome to the Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this oddly gatekeeped, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
SPEAKER_00And today we are talking about the picture book pipeline. So from idea to print, um, part of this is based on a talk that Tracy Shaw gave at the Carolinas SCBWL conference several years ago that both Katie and I attended. Um and she was fantastic. If you ever see her advertised as speaking at an event, I highly recommend her. I felt like I feel like a lot of the conferences that we go to, the people speaking, it's it's very like, here's how to do things on your end. Um, and she was one of the few that gave a lecture where it was like, here's how things go on my end. And I felt that that was very informative, partially because I think it was very unique in the way she was presenting it and like how she was really showing, hey, this is how this works, this is how my job works. And partially, I think she she was very thorough and she had a lot of slides and examples and pictures of what she was doing. Like she was very prepared as a presenter. I liked her a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she was fantastic and just brought a really great vibe. She's an art director at Little Brown, who is uh an imprint of Hatchet or Hatch Hachette.
SPEAKER_00I don't actually know how to right? Which one? Hatchet's like the thing you murder people with. Hashet is like nice, right? I don't know what it means, but it's not.
SPEAKER_01It feels less energy either. I don't know. But yeah. So that's where Little Brown's at, however you say that. Um but she, yeah, I agree where a lot of times the presenters are saying, okay, you need to do this, this, and this, rather than this is what goes on behind the scenes. And so it gives you a good look into what the publishing process is actually about and um timelines and things like that. And it was very eye-opening and informative, and I feel valuable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I guess what I'm thinking, I wrote down all of the different steps that she gave, um, or at least I have like shorthand notes because um sometimes I don't think I was able to write everything. But you are living the process. Um, I know you've turned in almost final art for your first book, and your second book you're currently working on finished art for. So I thought maybe I could go over these steps and then maybe you could comment on your particular experience because you're not published with Little Brown, you're published with other imprints. So, you know, every imprint works differently. We kind of compare, contrast, and discuss the different ways that books go through changes and different developmental steps on their way to publication.
SPEAKER_01Right. I'm with um a big five for one of my books and then a small indie publisher for another. And the process is very different for both of them. So um I think it's a good sample of what can actually go on in the industry.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, and this is again just for picture books. So if you write older prose novels, your experience is probably going to be completely different. Picture books are so illustration heavy, and it's usually author illustrators working on them that this is a completely different horse. The first step that Tracy talked about was that an editor will ask to see the full project once it's been pitched by the agent and also your full portfolio. They want to know who you are, what your interests are, if you can handle revisions, who you've worked with before, and what your body of work is like in general. Did any of the editors that you like that your Caitlin sent your stuff to did like, did you see hits on your website? Did like they talk about your other pieces? Like it sounds like Tracy does a lot of research on authors before she hires them. Did you feel like you were being researched and looked at in that way, or was it different for you?
SPEAKER_01I don't, I don't know if they looked at my website. I mean, I imagine they did because when my agent sends out um the submission, she includes my website in it. You know, she'll do like the pitch for the book, talk a little bit about the book, then me, include my website, and then she'll attach the book dummy. Um and from the moment that she sends it to the moment that they respond is months, right? So I really have no idea if and when they were looking at it. Um, but I imagine that they do look at my portfolio just to see what other kinds of work I do. Um, for Rise, which is an imprint of Penguin that one of my books is coming out with next year. We originally sent her a different dummy, and the editor had passed on that, but asked to see if I had any other work. And that's when we sent her the book that she actually acquired. And it was months and months before we ended up hearing back from her. I don't even remember how long it was from the time that we sent it to her to the time she responded. Um, but I had forgotten all about it until I got an email and then a phone call from my agent saying, Hey, did you see the email? Someone's interested in buying Bear's friend. Um so that was kind of what the process looked like. So she had actually seen two of my dummies.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and they get to know your work. And it it sounds like so, okay. So what happens after that is uh, at least for Little Brown, uh the editor then reviews and shares the manuscript with other editors and gathers comp titles. Um, then they create a PL, which is a profit and loss presentation to determine the profitability of the story. So manufacturing costs, if there are any special effects for the printing and marketing. And then they take that PL to an acquisitions meeting and they have to like pitch your book, pitch your comps, pitch like any cool stuff you want to do to the sales and marketing team. And uh let's see, they go over editorial sales, marketing, publicity, school and library. I'm not sure what I meant by writing school and library, but I'm guessing like whether schools or libraries would stock it. Um, and then there's a rep from each of those like departments at Little Brown that weighs in on whether they think the PL makes sense and whether they think they should acquire it. Um, and I don't know. Did you were you informed of that part of the process on your end when when your book sold?
SPEAKER_01No. So every publisher, like we said, works differently. And I know Little Brown has a pretty hefty acquisitions process that they have to go through in order to acquire a book. Um so they have all those people in that meeting to talk about everything. But um for the imprints and publishers that I've worked with, they actually don't have like an acquisitions team like that. So for the imprint at Penguin Rise, um, I think that she just had to talk to the other editors and get the go-head. And then the same for um Marble Press, which is the smaller publisher that I'm working with. He only had to talk to like the the president or the CEO of the company to kind of get approval. And he just brought it to them and said, Hey, I want to acquire this book for this, this, and this reason. And they would say yes or no, and that was it. So I I didn't have to go through all that other stuff.
SPEAKER_00There's less bureaucracy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Which is I have had a couple of books go through Little Brown's process and get passed on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it doesn't mean that they didn't want to acquire them because you know the art director loved you. Right. It's just all they have to look at it from all those different angles. Yeah, I feel like there's just sort of like a blanket dream that a lot of authors and illustrators have that they want to be published with a big five. But I feel like what's associated with it is like, oh, it would be a big book. That means you've made it. But really, there's like there's a lot of bureaucracy, there's a lot of red tape, there's like a lot of other things going on, a lot of other like cooks in the kitchen when you sign with like uh the main, you know, big five publisher. Whereas if you go with imprints, imprints can be more specialized, they can have more creative control. Like I feel like there's a more give and take there that isn't necessarily always considered.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it depends on the imprint. A big five is gonna have uh more money to put behind you and just more open doors to get you into places, as well as a larger marketing budget. Um, but they also publish way more books every year than a smaller publisher. So it's also about like how they care for you as an author or illustrator, how much time they're gonna give to your book specifically as opposed to a small publisher, which maybe only publishes like 10 books a year or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. So after that, this is assuming that you're not an author illustrator and you're just an author. Then after it's approved by sales and marketing and all these other teams, then they start looking for an illustrator. And sometimes they'll give some illustrator ideas when they pitch the book, sometimes they won't, but they reach out to illustrators, a sample spread or sketch is asked for, and then a final rendered spread. And then the artist for Little Browns, uh, the artists that they're considering are just play paid a flat rate of $500 as a work for higher contract. And then the artists, um, like usually three are asked to do samples, and artists not chosen can put the work in their portfolio. But then the artist that is chosen, you know, like the author and the editor make the final call, the artist is chosen, and then they have like a kickoff call and they sign a contract and they can't post that work because it's gonna go in the book or it's going something derivative of that is gonna go in the book. And I feel like I I mean, I know you don't have experience with this because you're the author illustrator. So your stuff has been picked up all at once. But I've heard like stuff where like if you work for Disney, like anything you make, even on your own time while you're like working for Disney could be owned by them. And they get, you know, if you ever make a project out of those things, they get, you know, like rate of first refusal and all that stuff. So I thought this was like refreshing, where I'm like, this is something I feel like publishing is doing right, where it's like, oh, you're paid to do these samples, but you can show these if you don't get chosen. Like you still can, it's not like you have to bury that work and can't put anything on your portfolio for the samples that you've done, which I think is nice. I know they're the film industry or animation industry can be a lot tougher.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's not like they're making you sign an MDA or anything like that. Yeah. It's if you don't get chosen, that $500 fee sounds nice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It does. I think that's a that's a good fee. I um oh gosh, I used to critique with this woman who was working for a comics company, and she um she had like a comic book that was getting acquired, and they were looking for sample artists, and they just weren't going to pay the same the artist at all for samples. Like three artists sent in samples and they were picking between them, and um, they they ended up paying them like a small fee um when the writer pushed back, but it it's like it wasn't a standard thing. Um, so it's not standard everywhere. 500 is not standard everywhere. This is specifically what Little Brown does. In general, I think artists should always be paid for samples. Like pay your artists, they're putting that time in. Like nowhere else in any other industry is it normalized that you do part of the work before they hire you for free. That's insane.
SPEAKER_01When I was um repped by a different agent, um, there was a publisher, it was a small publisher, and I honestly cannot remember who it was. But they reached out to my agent and said, Hey, if you have any illustrators who are interested in possibly doing this project, here's the brief for it. If they want to send in samples. And then she sent all of her illustrators that email. So if we wanted to, we could make a sample. They wanted like a sample illustration plus a character sheet. Um but it they weren't paying anything. So they were kind of like, if you want it, we'll look at your work. And so a lot of us did the work without getting paid. And then they ended up choosing one of us for the job, but the rest of us, like, yeah, you just don't get anything. Didn't get anything. Yeah. Come on, pay your artists. Yeah, but I feel like if they're, you know, they have like three artists that they're choosing from. We want you, you, or you, then that makes sense to pay. But if it's like an open call, I mean, how can they pay 20 different illustrators $500 each? I mean, they could.
SPEAKER_00I think they should do their research and figure out the illustrators. Figure out the style.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that most editors figure out what they're looking for, like the style that they want and they find those illustrators.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, be curated. Like, do your, you know. Anyway, that's just my two cents. But I know it's it it can be standard practice to act differently elsewhere. And unfortunately, because not paying your artists or not paying your artists well is unfortunately not uncommon. Um, it's not a huge red flag if people are asking for samples and stuff like that. I've done free samples for indie projects. Um, I think there were two where they wanted like some cute character designs. And one of them I I don't think they should have hired me because I uh I was not interested in in drawing the things that they wanted me to draw, and I don't think my samples looked great as a result. And then one of them I thought was real cute, and I think they should have hired me, but um I uh they just asked for sample character sketches, and both of them were for indie picture books where uh some the author was hiring an illustrator. Um in both cases, they wanted to see sketches of the main characters, but they didn't necessarily ask for full scenes. So I and I guess, you know, uh people who are indie and who are, you know, hiring just random illustrators are gonna have diff, you know, they set their own standard. But I I guess just saying that like different people ask for different things. This is unfortunately a common practice not to pay your illustrators. It's not great. It would be great if they paid you. It's not a huge red flag of misconduct if they are not offering to, unfortunately. Right. But uh the artist was chosen, or you are the author illustrator and you came with the package when they bought you. Um, and the artist has a kickoff call where they decide on a trim size, they decide on the art creation, the file creation, the templates, the bleed, the safety margins, and the first date for sketches. Um and I'm curious as to did they go over all of that stuff for your initial meetings when you met with the editors?
SPEAKER_01Uh it was just over an email that they gave me all that information.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so it's it wasn't a discussion, but they're just kind of like, we want the book to be this size. Uh right. Okay. And it is good to get that in writing. Um one thing that she did say, I I think when she was lecturing was like, make sure you know your pictures have like a little bit of extra bleed. So if the side is changed incrementally or the bleed has changed like a little bit in, you know, when they're doing post-production stuff, then you're not screwed and you don't have to come up with a half inch of illustration that perfectly matches the rest of it or anything.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And that is actually can be hard because if you submit a dummy to them, you format your own dummy. And then if you decide they want it to be a different size, then you have to go with that and change it, which I am literally dealing with. Yeah, but can you talk about your experience with that? Yeah. So I originally um had it, oh man, what size was it? It was like eight by ten, I think.
SPEAKER_00Which is one of the standard sizes. Um, I think nine by eleven, eight and a half by eleven, eight by ten, and ten by ten are the standard picture book sizes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I've also done eight and a half by eight and a half as well. Um, but yeah, I formatted it one way, and then they picked up my book, which is fantastic, and then they said, okay, this is going to be the size. And then they actually, the art director put all of my artwork into that format, and you could see where like there was gaps. So I had to fix those things. And I work traditionally in watercolor too. I do digital, so I can like edit it in order to like pull it out. This is just the edges. Um, so I had to do some changes, and then I moved to final art, and then they got back to me and said, I'm so sorry, but we actually decided we're changing the size again, and it's gonna be this size. And luckily, I was a little behind schedule. So I hadn't started the final art. So it was I was still doing sketches. I was like, I hadn't like done anything with the final art and painted anything on paper. Um, so I had to like go in and change my sketches to like extend where it needed to be and cut things down. Um so I'm so glad that I hadn't moved to final art yet, though, because then I would have had to like change all that.
SPEAKER_00That would have been so impossible. And I think this is a good example of like why illustrators, even if you work traditionally, and honestly, I feel like traditional art is making a bit of a comeback. Like it's it's wonderful. And if you work traditionally, like that's fantastic. But you do need to know some basics of some photo art altering program, like whether that be procreate or Photoshop, something with like a clone tool and a smudge tool, like so that if stuff like this happens, you're not completely screwed and you don't have to traditionally like perfectly align watercolor and then like figure out how to get rid of the seams or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Like I think there are some artists who do not work digitally at all. And they just do their artwork and they send it into the publisher and that's it. That's true.
SPEAKER_00If you're famous, you can do that too.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Well, I don't even know if you have to necessarily be famous to just like send because the publishers can scan the art for you if you want. Like if you don't have access to a scanner or anything like that, then you can just paint your stuff and send it to them and they'll do it for you. Nerve-wracking though, right? Like, I'd be so I know. Like, can I buy insurance on this? Because if this gets lost, can you imagine how devastating that would be?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I have damaged for like $20,000 of insurance on seriously.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, but I feel like if you want the book to be a certain size, like you probably do have to be a bigger name artist. So that way they will actually say, okay, we'll we'll take the hit and for the higher fee. Because that's why they changed the size of mine, was because it was gonna be less money um for the size that they ended up making it.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Um, and if you're sending stuff digitally, uh, she was saying they prefer RGB files because they're easier to color correct, even though CMYK is what you're supposed to format in for when you're getting stuff ready to print. So it's always good to ask the publisher like, do you want CMYK? Do you want RGB? Like, how do you want this exported? Like if you're using Procreate, keep in mind that there's some often some color offset when you export to a Photoshop file. Um, and then if you're sending in the traditional work, I know Little Brown has a pre-press house that fixes digital edits for traditional work for artists that can't do that, but you should ideally you should be able to do that. So you don't have to mail in months of work and hope it's okay.
SPEAKER_01I know. I know um Cynthia Derby. Uh, she is a fantastic author illustrator. She's got the most beautiful work and she has um won a Caldicott honor before, but she has talked on another podcast before about how she like was her first book and she made all the art and sent it to the publisher, but she like bubble wrapped it and taped it up, and it was like this giant package because she was so terrified. She sent it off to this publisher and she was just like, Oh, this is gonna be insane when they open it.
SPEAKER_00Dude, I'd be terrified too. Um, what was the podcast? You want to plug them?
SPEAKER_01No, because I don't remember what podcast it was.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'll I'll see if I can find it afterwards and we'll try and put it in the show notes. Um was it a conversation for you, like RGB versus CMYK and like how to export, like like what did they ask for?
SPEAKER_01Uh they've asked for CMYK.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00So it must just be a little brown thing. Yeah. I don't know. Interesting. But yeah, always good to ask instead of assume, I guess, is the message. And then so the after this, she talked about their standard schedule for a fall release. I guess I can talk about the schedule that she gave, and maybe you could talk about like what your experience has been like because you're on two very different schedules with two very different presses. Um, we could talk about how it like lines up versus doesn't. And it seems like this is always kind of like uh loose in as far as scheduling. Like it sounds like they have like a month or two of like cushioning for extensions and stuff like that, um, either on the illustrator's end or on you know, the editor's end, depending on uh how things are working. But um, assuming something is picked up, uh, they acquired the manuscript by December 1st, um, just as an example, because she was giving a bunch of dates for these. Um, the text galley is due to the illustrator on the 15th. So you have like two weeks to make any text edits before the illustrator gets the project and you can't keep editing your manuscript. Um, and if you're the author illustrator, I don't know if it's kind of wrapped up in the same since you're you could potentially like uh change things as you illustrate. I don't know. But um, once it is given to the illustrator, once you have finished your edits, um between 12 15 and 2 1, so February 1st, uh, you have to do sketches. So you have like two and a half, no, I'm crazy. One and a half months to do your sketches and turn them in. Um, then a week later, on the 8th, uh, they have a sketch meeting. Um, and then on April 1st, the sketches are approved. So it takes them like almost two months to go back and forth and do edits on the sketches. And I don't know how much of that time is like them talking and the illustrator just waiting, versus like because it seems like based on we have friends who are are published and have dealt with this as well. I know, where it's like hurry up and wait, and then they send you edits and they're like, hey, we need this by next week. Here's like edits in your entire book, and some of these need to be completely redone. So it I think it depends. But um for them, a month later on the fifth, the jacket slash case concept is due. Um, and then after the sketches are approved, you're working on mechanicals, um, which so as opposed to rough sketches, these would be like final, very precise drawings. And depending on your style, these could be crazy complex, or these could be, you know, if you're very painterly, they could be less complex and it could be something that takes you less time. But the mechanicals are due on May 11th. Um, so that's like a month after the sketches are approved to do all the final drawings. And then the second pass on the mechanics uh are due in June. So you have like two months basically to do the final drawings and edits for the final drawings. Um, the jacket art is due on the 15th. So that's May 1st that the concept was due. And then a month and a half later, you have to finish the jacket art. And then the final art for everything is due in on August 1st. So even though it's been eight months since your book was acquired, you only have two months to do all of the final art in this case, which is wild to me considering it like how many months you spend on those sketches. I feel like I would want it the other way around, where it's like you've got like four months for art and then like way less time to do sketches and mechanicals. But I'm curious, that's that's a standard little brown format that she talked about, um, and the timeline that she works on and these hard dates and deadlines where all these people gather and do meetings for these. I'm curious as to how your experiences compare and contrast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, when I when they acquired my book, I already had refined sketches. So we started at that baseline. I wasn't starting from nothing. Um, so it would look a little bit different in terms of timeline. Um but like for one of my books with a smaller publisher, they had they acquired my book and they had maybe a couple sketch changes, and that was it. And um, my editor was also my art director. So there isn't another team of like designers, art directors, all these people giving feedback. It was literally my editor and then like his boss who were kind of looking at it. Um, and so I made those changes, sent it back, and he was like, Cool, that looks great, and moved to final art, and you could have it to meet here, but there's leeway, like everything is was very laid back. It was great, and they had a lot of time. Um, so I had a few months to work on it. I think it was like three, and I had already had four finished pieces in the dummy. And so I just had to finish the rest of it, um, which were already going through more fine sketches.
SPEAKER_00So it was like 30-something pieces of finished artwork.
SPEAKER_01Um, it's a 32-page book. I think there was probably like 10 spreads, maybe. I honestly don't remember and have to look. Um but yeah, I I was able to finish it on time. No big deal. I think I sent it eight, maybe even a little bit early. Um so it was just like very laid back, no pressure. Like, we've got time, you you can send them to me like individually or all at once. Like it's fine. So I ended up sending all of it to him at once, and he had a few changes, and so then I had to go back and I did those digitally because goodness, I'm not gonna redraw like four paintings. Um, I mean, I could, I and people do, but hopefully, if you're working traditionally, you get most of that all finished in like the sketch phase. Um and then I sent that back. I think he had like one other very teeny tiny minor change, and then it all got approved. So that was I started working on it gosh in like probably December. I think I started working on it in December, and then I sent them over in I want to say maybe March 1st was my deadline. Okay. So I finished the final art and sent that all to them, including the cover as well.
SPEAKER_00Did you feel like the timeline was pretty reasonable? Like, did like were you feeling like rushed to complete everything? Like, is there anything that you wish you had been able to like change or include that you didn't have time for? Or was it like, okay, like if I work X amount of hours a day, like I because I feel like a lot of illustrators who are newer to publication, um, they spend a really long time on one piece in their portfolio or you know, like a really long time working on a concept. And then when they're hit with like the deadlines in publishing, it can be overwhelming. So is there any like advice you'd give to them to like stay on track, stay on schedule to work with this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I kind of figured out how long it would take me to do each spread and then kind of divided that by the amount of time that I had to figure out okay, how many spreads do I need to do in a week? Is it one, two, three? Um, and then I have like check boxes. I have like a notes, the notes app in my phone where I would check it off. And then I have like a physical calendar where I check it off and make sure like everything is good to go and I'm staying on track. Um so staying organized, I think is very important. I was also supposed to have my the final art for my other book due at almost the exact same time. And I was like super stressed about that. But that was with um the other publisher and it ended up getting pushed back. So they didn't end up overlapping. And I was like, oh my gosh, thank, thank goodness, because I don't know if I could like switch back and forth and do all these spreads. Like my my planner looked crazy. Right.
SPEAKER_00Cause and then with the what's that? Oh, because you like to concentrate on one thing at a time and just finish it before you even start at the next thing.
SPEAKER_01I'm very much like one track minded, and it's hard for me if I have like so many things due all at the same time. Like it just boggles my brain. It's very hard. But I know like you're the opposite where you like to have lots of projects at one time.
SPEAKER_00They're all at different levels of finish. Like the my sandwich table piece, I'm like, I'm almost done. I just have to do this girl's shirt. And then I have one that's like in a sketch stage, and then one that's just like a colored thumbnail. And I just kind of bounce back and forth depending on like how I'm feeling. Cause I feel like I on, I mean, honestly, lately I've been just revising my prose novel so I can get it out to beta readers as soon as possible. But like when I am concentrating on illustrating, I like having a few options because um, I think especially with ADHD, like you kind of have to follow the dopamine and like motivating myself to work is a big, like a big part of it is like what am I excited about right now? And I try and limit myself not to have more than like four things I'm working on at once. Otherwise, I never finish anything. So you do have to, I do have to have like some limits, but I think having like a spread of options, it makes me feel like more excited to work on whatever I'm kind of vibing with the most.
SPEAKER_01That's so interesting. Um yeah, because you have ADHD. My kids have ADHD, my husband has ADHD. And so, like, I I see that that's how you guys work. And I'm so not that way. Like my dopamine hit comes from when I can check off that box. And so to have to go back and forth and back and forth, so like it doesn't get finished as quickly stresses me out. Like, I need to be able to check off the box and say it's done. And then I get really happy about it. And it's so hard for me to work on one thing when I know there's this other thing that I also need to be working on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I get that. I mean, I if I have a deadline, I will prioritize that. I think part of working with the publishing industry is like, unfortunately, like it's a business and you can't just be an artist. And if you're not vibing with a certain spread or something, you can't just move on to the next thing because maybe you know, you have to have sketches for this stuff due and you can't work on another project or pitch. Like you do have to keep a schedule. You have to have like a spreadsheet or a checklist or something to keep yourself accountable so that you can be in a functional workspace. And I think I I I worry that people err too much on the side of like being an artist when as soon as your book sells, you are an artist, but you're you're performing like you know, a a cog in a larger business, and you need to be creative within that cog, because if you pull that out, you're screwing over so many people. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is a business, and you have to keep that in mind and you have to prioritize. And I mean, it's nice to say, yeah, I just get to be creative all the time, but it's not really true. Like you have to keep track of your finances, and there's the whole marketing side of the book, which is a whole other beast. Like you make the book and then you wait for it to come out, but then you have to promote the book and you have to go do, you know, like launch visits and school visits, and there's just like a lot that goes behind it. Yeah, you have to go on podcasts and plug yourself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes, which as soon as they're reporter links, we will be including them in the show notes. Yes. Yeah, so that's that's the majority of it. And then once the jacket and the finals are all turned in, um, then you're done. Uh and it's an eight-month process. And then I I think she was saying it takes, I forget if it was nine or 10 months. I didn't write down the extension, but I remember she was talking about it. And it's like once, you know, once that's done, once that deadline, once you hit that final, final deadline, like then you're out of time and stuff is getting, you know, because that's the end of August. And this is for their fall submissions, like their fall list. So if you ask for too many extensions or too many things happen that pull push things back, um, then unfortunately you might get pushed to next fall. Um, and then that sets your book back a whole year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I will say publishers oftentimes they build in that extra time for you. So they'll say this is your deadline, but then a lot of times they have leeway if you need an extension. Um hopefully you're working ahead of time. Like my book with Penguin, um, they gave me a hard deadline, but then they took longer with getting me feedback. And so they pushed the deadline back. And um, so it's gotten pushed back by a couple months, but we still have a lot of time. Um, because my book doesn't come out until fall of 2027 and it's you know, May of 2025. And um even with the deadline that they gave me for final art, they gave me two months and I said, I need extra time. Um, and so they gave me extra time, like no big deal. And said, We still really good on time. So they they plan for that. And I think it's important to advocate for yourself. Don't, you know, like not eat or sleep just because you're trying to finish art, if you like, like ask for the time. And they'll say yes or no and just be just communicate politely and professionally. Um, and I'm sure they'll be really understanding.
SPEAKER_00I feel like from faculty, just from watching like interviews on YouTube and listening to other podcasts and you know, going to conferences, one thing that I hear over and over is like, if you can't make your deadline, let them know as soon as possible. So if you're worried about making your deadline and you are getting to the point where you are not sleeping to make that deadline, like that's the point where it's like, okay, if you don't make that deadline then and you haven't said anything to them, then that's dramatically more unprofessional than just asking for an extension up front.
SPEAKER_01Right. If you're like, you know, it's due on Monday and it's Friday night, don't ask for deadline.
SPEAKER_00Like ask, ask for that extension. Plan things out, use your KD checklist and ask for an extension a couple months ahead of time when you realize, like, oh, it took them longer to get sketch feedback. Oh, they want a much more complicated series of spreads now. I think this may take longer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, and hot tip. Also, if you are a parent who uh you know has kids in school or not in school or whatever, plan around their school breaks as well. Like realize, oh, spring break is coming up. I might get nothing done that week, and that's one week of no work. Or like summer break is coming up. I'm probably not gonna get as much done during summer break as I would during school year. And so like I try and plan all that stuff out ahead of time. So I'm aware of like the capacity that I have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, one last thing she mentioned in the talk is that um a lot of layout artists, uh, you know, they handle the text. So when you're submitting stuff for cover art, um, you'll be asked for multiple sketches, but you're not asked to actually put the text in. Someone else is going to do that for you. So you'll make all these sketches and you'll want to leave the like, think about how many words your cover is. If your cover is like one word, then maybe it's not as much space. Or maybe, you know, they're gonna stretch the letters out. So it needs to be taller. If you have a ton of words in your cover, you'll need a lot of space in your cover. But leave space for the artist that illustrate, or the artist, the author, or author illustrator, and for the cover title, and then have multiple different ideas that you're exploring within leaving space for that. Um, and then for the jacket, once again, you don't need to do text, but keep in mind, you know, jackets have flaps, things go inside the flaps. Be mindful of where stuff is going to go, and then plan around that and give multiple options with different ways that that space could work. I think she talked about like we get these beautiful drawings, and then there's nowhere to put the title. So they have to change them completely.
SPEAKER_01And that's hard as an artist when you have like your heart set on a specific idea and then you don't plan for that and they say, we can't use this. Yes, that sucks. Did you do text for your cover? I remember you showed it to me, but I can't remember. I did not do text for Pay Attention Oliver, but for Bear's Friend, I haven't done the cover yet. Um, the cover sketch has been approved, and they told me that I can play around with the text if I'd like, if like I want to do a hand letter text. So I'll be playing with that.
SPEAKER_00That sounds fun because you have a lot of experience doing hand lettering.
SPEAKER_01I have experience doing like pretty calligraphy type hand lettering, not like kid lit friendly hand lettering. So we'll see. Okay. We'll see how if I can't do it, I'm sure they'll just be like, okay, we'll just do a different text.
SPEAKER_00I know. I I do not feel confident with text at all. And I've done a few book covers where I was asked to do the text. I feel like the text like took more mental strain than the illustration ever did.
SPEAKER_01So true. It is so true because it it really does matter. Like the readability and you want it to be like really big, but I don't know. And you want it to be appealing and then also match the style of the art. It's there's a lot. Like there's whole classes on fonts.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I took a few, I think I took like three graphic design classes in college. And I still don't feel like I have a firm handle on it. I feel like I learned a lot, but I I almost wish I had like there was space for me to do like a design minor or something like that when I had studied. Um, I do want to plug one of the books that I did the text for was another Enchanted April, which is Suzanne's book with Seesaw Press, and I will put it in the show notes if you want to check it out. Um I think she's working on potentially a third book um for Seesaw, but uh yeah, I want to make sure I give her a shout-out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I need to read that book because I love Enchanted April, the original Enchanted April.
SPEAKER_00I know. Next time we meet up, I want to watch the movie with you because I cannot find it everywhere. I know you have the demonic.
SPEAKER_01I love that movie. One of my favorite movies, and also a fantastic book.
SPEAKER_00That's everything from my notes on the pipeline, but are there any like tidbits or like general like picture book pipeline things that you want to jump in with before we finish with this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just know that it can vary widely depending on who you're working with. Um, for instance and like how they communicate. Like uh for Bear's friend that's with Penguin, I got a PDF with uh comments back and forth. And that's typically how we communicated is just like through the comments back and forth and back and forth. Um and you know, the art two editors, an art director and a designer were all commenting on it. Um and then with Pay Attention Oliver, it was totally different, or it was like in an email between me and the editor, and that was it. And so it just it can vary so widely, but always advocate for yourself if you're confused about something, ask clarifying questions. Um, I even had to ask for a like a call because I was a bit confused by some of the notes, and I said, can we just have a call and hash this out all at one time? Um and I communicate better over calls than over just like comment threads anyway. So, and they were totally fine with it and wonderful because people in the publishing industry are amazing and so kind. Um, and you're all on the same team, like you're all working with the same goal in mind of having a wonderful book at the end of the whole process. Everybody has that same goal. So work together and um yeah, that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's great advice. All right. Well, moving on to our agency deep dive for today. Um, you're talking about Marie Lamba. Marie Lamba is uh the other agent that I met at the conference that I went to, and she was a really nice lady. I liked her. Um, she's been around for a long time. Her first deal was in 2013, beginning of 2013. Um, and she's a senior agent at Jennifer De Chiara Literary. Um, she's also an author. She's, I haven't read any of her books, but she has, I think it looks like five or six out. Um, her articles have appeared in more than 100 publications, according to her website. Um, and she kind of reps everything. She does fiction, nonfiction, and picture books all the way to adults. And she does author illustrators, um, but I don't think illustrators only. In fiction, she represents stuff for children and adults. Uh, so she's open to most nonfiction subjects. In fiction, she's looking for a middle grade and young adult currently, as well as graphic novels with diverse points of view. Um, she's also interested in general women's fiction and graphic novels for adults. She uh is interested in a select number of illustrators and picture book authors. She loved to find an original rom-com that would inspire the next smart and funny chick flick. She loves contemporary as well as historical and is always interested in a fresh and non-gory ghost story for any age. She likes fantasy with speculative elements and is on the hunt for a unique, funny romanticy. She's fascinated with hidden treasures, discovering ancient civilizations right beneath our feet. She's a fan of folklore and fairy tales and enjoys those elements woven into stories. Um she is not a good fit for graphic violence, erotica, horsey books, um, romance, although romantic elements are welcome, and Christian fiction. She has a manuscript wish list. So I'll post her links in the chat. She has a query manager and she is currently open to queries. So if you have anything that fits her list, you can go ahead and query her. She seemed pretty informed on the industry when I spoke to her at the conference. I got to do a round table with her, and she was very nice and open and laid back. Uh, she was one of the ones where they had kind of like it was a themed round table with themed questions, and she was like, Yeah, you can ask me whatever you want. I don't care about the theme. So she seemed more relaxed, which was nice. Um, but yeah, that is everything about her. And with that, I think we are good, and we will see you next episode. Bye. Bye.