Publishing Pals
Welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this oddly gatekept, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
Publishing Pals
Interview with Illustrator Lavanya Naidu and Author Debra Shumaker!
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Hello!
In this episode we’re interviewing Illustrator Lavanya Naidu and Author Debra Shumaker! We talk about their publishing journey, as well as their collaboration on their forthcoming picture book, Sunday Scaries!
Preorder here! - https://tinyurl.com/bdffhd6k
Here are some of the authors, artists, and other things we brought up during the episode. Just a disclaimer - please do not take our word as fact. The publishing industry is always changing, and often we are talking about things we are remembering from a while ago or have heard from others. It’s always important to do your own research! If we realize after the fact that we have gotten anything wrong, we will do our best to correct it in the show notes.
Lavanya and Debra’s links:
Lavanya:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/lavanyanaidu/?hl=en
Book related work - https://catagencyinc.com/lavanya-naidu
Portfolio - https://www.behance.net/lavanyanaidu
Website - https://lavanyanaidu.com/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@lavanya_naidu
Debra:
Website - https://debrashumaker.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/debrakshumaker/
Bluesky - https://bsky.app/profile/debrakshumaker.bsky.social
Some of the indy bookstores in the northern VA area that Debra shouted out:
Birch Tree Books: https://www.birchtreebookstore.com/
Scrawl Books: https://www.scrawlbooks.com/
PB Pitch: https://pbpitch.weebly.com/pbpitch-twitter-event.html
Gianna Lakenauth, the editor who worked on Sunday Scaries who Debra gave a shoutout to: https://manuscriptwishlist.com/mswl-post/gianna-lakenauth/
Lavanya’s agent that she mentioned and gave a shoutout to is Aliza R Hoover:
Hello, I'm Maria. And I'm Suzanne. And welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this gatekeeped, confusing, but also incredibly fun and rewarding industry. And today for our interview episode, we are joined by Lavanya Naidu and Deborah Shoemaker. Thank you so much for being here, guys. Hi, so this is an author-illustrator duo who have worked together on a recent upcoming picture book. Deborah Shoemaker lives in the suburbs of Northern Virginia with her husband and two cats and is wrecked by James McGowan and Sophie Shoemaker, no relation, at Bookend's Literary Agency. She has been getting book deals since 2019 and is now the author of books such as Freaky Funky Fish, Peculiar Primates, Tell Someone, and Wind is a Dance. When she isn't reading or writing, she enjoys hiking, gardening, and watching Jeopardy. The book she wrote with illustrations by Lavanya Naidu, Sunday Scaries, is set for release in August of this year. And Lavanya Naidu is an artist with a degree in animation film design from the National Institute of Design. She is repped by Eliza R. Hoover at the Cat Agency and has illustrated books for a wide range of publishers and imprints, including Scholastic, Delacourt, Viking Books, and Candlewick. She has worked as an animator, pre-production artist, head of design, episodic director in animated content, and even worked on kids' games. Originally from Kolkata, she currently resides in Melbourne, Australia with her husband and dog. And we are so excited to have you on today.
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SPEAKER_03And I I know it's I when we logged on, you guys, uh, this is your first time meeting like virtually, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes. It is really exciting to uh see her face. I know that this is a podcast, but I'm seeing her face right now. And um, it is. It's very exciting to do an interview with an illustrator of my book because I've this is the first time I've done something like this.
SPEAKER_01No, same for me. I'm really excited to meet Deborah and also we could gain insights on, you know, how how Sunday Scaries came into being and all of the behind-the-scenes stuff. So I'm really excited to be meeting her in in person virtually as well, and all of you guys too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think maybe there's some confusion um about the publishing industry just in general, and people think of having their book illustrated, how much communication there is between the artist and the author when it's not an author illustrator. Um, can you guys talk a little bit about like what amount of interaction have you guys had with either illustrators or authors before in previous books? And and just like what input you get through like an art director, through their agent, et cetera.
SPEAKER_02Um as is typical, I've never collaborated um with the illustrators. It's always I get information from the editor, I give feedback to the editor who goes to the art director and then the illustrator, or maybe maybe there's some communication between the editor and the illustrator, but uh there I've never had one-on-one contact with an illustrator until after the project is done.
SPEAKER_04Oh wow. As someone not in the picture book world, that that definitely is shocking. You think we do mostly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Most people are shocked to hear that. Uh, when I do school visits, everyone assumes that, you know, all the little kids assume that we know each other, we're best friends, we're neighbors, or something or other. Um, but no, I've never uh had a conversation, like a I've had email conversations after um after the illustrations are finally done. I've then basically reached out and just you know expressed my gratitude and my awe in the process. But uh the traditionally both editors and art directors don't want that communication. And I think my my understanding is, which I agree with, they don't want the author directing, trying to micromanage the process because the art is it's it is uh just as important as the text. I mean, it it just adds so much to the story, and uh the illustrator is the professional in the art. I believe me, I am not. So um most people are shocked at how little, if any, collaboration we've had, and we've had none.
SPEAKER_01I think it's very much the same as what Deborah's mentioned already in in the case of illustrators as well. Um, it's certainly post the project is when we connect. Um and now I think because we have social media and Instagram, we probably follow each other during the project and connect over that um for chats and things. And but it's it's never really um in that sense, you know, we don't work together, I guess, through the process of the book. And I I completely agree with what Deborah's saying as well. I think it's to keep sort of, I guess maybe it's we all kind of tend to have like a certain vision for something, and maybe it's to try and have as much of an unbiased, I guess, viewpoint um of how the book could be represented. So that's probably why, but it does make sense. But yeah, it's also it's also great just connecting afterwards as well. And you know, this this is amazing to really get to know the behind the scenes. Like I'm always curious, I'm like, oh, how did how did the author come up with this idea? And like, what was the the thought process and the journey? So I'm really excited to hear about that as well. I'm gonna learn lots about Sunday Scary System. I just know it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, maybe we should start there with like Deborah, what was your initial spark?
SPEAKER_02So the longer I'm in the published world, the more I realize there is no typical. Uh, my first book was the typical. I wrote a book, I found an agent. Actually, I wrote the freaky funky fish. Well, after I had my first agent, um the first few books didn't sell, so but then she would submit to the editors, and that's how it goes. This book has a very interesting history. Um, Kanof actually bought a different picture book that I wrote way back. They offered in 2021, I think. And then the editor left Kanof. And then um Kanoff made a decision that that was not a book they no longer want wanted for their list. But they loved my writing, they wanted to work with me. Could I pitch them several ideas in the SEL space with a little bit of humor? So that was um very different. So it was two rounds of pitches, and um so you know, I thought back when I was a kid, what was I struggling with? And um did not call it Sunday Scaries. I actually the pitch I had it was called Sunday Night Blues, um, about a girl who would get a stomachache every Sunday night because she didn't want to go to school the next day. And that was in my second round of pitches, and then an editor grabbed on that. She's like, that's what we want. So then I had to write an outline and then the book. So it was actually much more of a collaborative process with my editor, uh, the new editor that you know I was assigned, um, that I've ever had, because usually it's the manuscript is written, my agent submits to several publishers, and then an editor falls in love and makes an offer on it. So this was backwards.
SPEAKER_03I'm so curious. What was it like pitching directly to an editor instead of sending something to your agent and then then sending it out? Was it like really rough, like a log line you were pitching in?
SPEAKER_02It was, I mean, I did it with my agent, but um, it was like just six like three to four line paragraphs, like potential title, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, the kind of like I always think of a pitch as kind of like what the jacket copy might be type thing. Okay. Uh so it was, you know, and then once once one was accepted, then I actually had to write the story, which was the scariest thing ever, because my first four books are either nonfiction or concept. So I've never written a fiction, I've never successfully sold a fiction picture book with a plot until this one. So um it was scary, but it was also very fun. I it was it was such an unusual process this time around. But then again, if I look at my five books, they've all each one has its own unique story. So there there is very little typical in the publishing industry.
SPEAKER_03I'm um I'm very curious what the um after you like got your notes together and everything and like submitted your final text for the book, um, what changed between you submitting it and the final version that Lav got to illustrate? Like I would do, I guess more just like for people listening, like illustrating like how things continue to evolve after you sell it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So again, she asked for an outline, which I found very strange for a picture book. Um, so I wrote like two rough drafts and sent it to James, and he's like, okay, now kind of backtrack. They want an outline, we're gonna give them an outline. Okay, so I I wrote a very, I mean, like very rough draft and then made it to an outline. But then she gave me a lot of feedback on the outline, and you know, um it was a strange process, but um, but again, it was fun to collaborate with the editor. She really wanted this to succeed. Um, and um, I I loved the end result. Um, definitely some plot lines changed. Um, once I started writing it, then I realized I kind of had two different reasons going on initially about why Josie had such a stomachache. And I realized between the I don't know, three to five back and forths of the drafts, I guess, with Gianna, um you know, that the storyline things needed to be streamlined and maybe a little bit of a hint added somewhere just to kind of get the storyline to tie together. So it was an interesting process. Um and then um so what Lavana saw, um Yeah, I I don't think much changed once uh we kind of got the sign-off from the editorial team. I don't think that much changed. So, but it was definitely it started out as an outline that I fleshed out, and there's probably three and four. And I bring my critique book, like, okay, critique group, help me out here, you know. This is what she's hoping for, this is what I'm doing. And I am so thankful for my critique groups, like all of my critique groups who helped me through this process because it was not the typical way I've written a picture book.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I bet going from that uh from nonfiction must have been a completely different experience.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And the other book I had written was much more of a concept emotional type book. So there was a little bit of a plot, but not much. This is the first where you know there is an actual plot. So I've struggled with plot. So I'm so glad with how it turned out.
SPEAKER_03Well, the book is great, it's super cute. I love the illustrations, Lav. Your stuff is gorgeous. I was like so excited to interview you when I saw your website. Um thank you. I I'm very curious. Uh Deborah, were there art notes that Lav got that you had written? And Lav, I'm curious how you go about interpreting art notes when you get them. Like what does your brainstorming process look like? What did what are things like on your end?
SPEAKER_02So there were very few art notes, and I'm always curious if the editor ends up taking them out, but I think I had one where I just kind of wanted to explain the scene a little bit that she was like throwing fake snowflakes so that her parents would see snowflakes. Um, I think I had that um just at the beginning, I wanted to be very clear that she was walking out of the school because my my my first draft had like a scuba bell ringing, and we just made that an illustrator's note. And then there was one I was looking at my revision process earlier today. There was one spot where the parents are also having their own Sunday scaries, and I had some lines in there about them checking their emails and whatever. And in the end, we actually took that out and I just put it as an illustration note. I wanted to make sure that Lav understood that their Sunday night routine wasn't the best routine either. So um I think that was it, right, Love?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, pretty much. I think it's exactly uh they kept all of that. So I did receive all of that when I went through the first draft. And I think that's really useful as well because it gives me clues as to what are the most important story story points to hit visually as well, and what are the things that are important, I guess, for driving a certain point. Like what you mentioned about her parents going through that sensation of having the Sunday scaries. I go through this every weekend. Today's a public holiday, it's Monday here, so I'm just really chill because of that. But I absolutely, the minute I read the manuscript, I instantly connected with it because I think most people do, right? I mean, I've got this like love-hate thing with Mondays. Um, I've I've known this my whole life. And um just being able to connect with the way that Josie feels, and I feel like it's just not not just kids who would connect with the book. I definitely feel like all of the adults, whoever's gonna be reading this to their kids as well, is going to really relate to this. Um so yeah, from that perspective, the art notes um were really helpful in in that instance. And um going into how to interpret that, I think for me, the challenge with the book was that this is a feeling that Josie has. And how do you give um physical form to something like that, which which allows kids to be able to process um what is really happening? So initially I was thinking, oh, it could be, you know, what can we do to it to give it physical form? It could be a monster, but then what if it's actually just Monday itself, you know, that's sort of creeping. It's all of its, you know, the letters have arms and they're sort of like creeping up on Josie as as the weekend comes to an end. Um, so yeah, that's that's pretty much yeah, where I went went off of one, yeah, creatively.
SPEAKER_02I want to chime in how much I love what you did with the Monday word. And I mean, it's scary but kid friendly, scary. And it was just with the the creepiness of it. I think that I never really thought about what kind of visual I'm not a visual thinker, so I I never it never even crossed my mind. Oh, I wonder what the illustrator will do with this. And I just love, love, love, love. I think it is so adorable, and you know, just with the little touch of the scary feeling.
SPEAKER_03And I I hope kids love it. Thank you. No, it was really beautiful. Um, did you were there a lot of revisions that it went through, or was that like your initial concept, and then you just were able to take it to final?
SPEAKER_01I think uh it was really collaborative. And um, you know, my designer and um Gianna and Tallinn, they were really open to my ideas. So initially I just went ahead and explored a few different options of how we could represent it. Uh, Deborah, it was initially quite scary. And then I think I went to the extreme and then we paired it back. Um and if you see it through the book, it's actually it just gets a little, you know, the the hands and the fingers, they start to get a little creepier and slightly chunkier as well to kind of build that notion of fear. Um, so it was it was great, like back and forth, and you know, really working with the team to try and land on something that would be um, like Deborah said, not too scary, but also at the same time really selling the um, you know, the concept of this being Josie's anxiety is building with every week that this happens. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm curious now that the book is done and you guys are about to have it out in the world, um, I know more than it it was a few decades ago, artists and illustrators are expected to do a lot on more self-promotion when forthcoming books happen. I'm curious as to what promotion looks like from the artist side and from the writer's side and how that is different and how maybe you collaborate with authors or illustrators for projects on things like this.
SPEAKER_01For me, as I'm not based in the in the States, I a lot of my promotional stuff would be digital and how to go about things digitally. So I am very excited. I've got like a few reels and things planned for social media, uh, of course, pre-order links on my website and promoting that whenever you know um it's necessary to like bring the audience into getting some pre-order sales, but also art process. And I think that's something that I really, really actively want to start sharing with each of my picture books. So I've started like a little YouTube channel that has screen recordings of my illustrations um on books. And so you can tune into that. I'll link all of that once it's out so that you can see the process of how you know specific illustrations in the book have worked. I also want to do more breakdown style um videos or reels that's a bit quicker, I guess, to watch. So I'll be doing some of that. And I want to do some fun stuff with Josie. So I've got a few things planned that I'm really excited about. Um yeah, stay tuned, coming weeks. That sounds fantastic. I can't wait to see it.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Um, as for my end, you know, um, I live in an area that has lots of local independent bookstores, Northern Virginia, and they're spread out far enough where I feel like if I do one thing one weekend and another thing another weekend, that I'm not like hurting the business of the individual bookstores. So um I've got a couple events and I'm still working on scheduling a few more. Um, I love doing book festivals, so I'm in the process of applying for book festivals. So that'll be like most book festivals they want a book within the last year. So it'll be from this fall through next summer that I'll apply for some book festivals.
SPEAKER_03Are there any favorite local bookstores or book festivals that you'd like to plug?
SPEAKER_02Uh Scrawl Books in Reston, Virginia is uh my go-to one. Um, Leesburg also has one, Birch Tree Books. Um yeah, they're both equidistant from me. So um I utilize both. Um and then there's a fellow uh Virginian author who just opened up a bookstore in Aquaquan. So um I'm doing something with her the day before school starts for her county. So I felt like that that timing was working out really well. So other than that, uh I mean, you know, I you feel like you're shouting into the wind. I mean, it'll, you know, definitely, you know, I'm doing a pre-order campaign to, you know, give out some stickers and bookmarks. If they order from scroll, I'll, you know, I'll put in the stickers and bookmarks. Um yeah, I promotion is a challenge. I never know what's working or not working, but I love talking about books, and so I'll just do whatever feels right at the time.
SPEAKER_03How do you go about booking stuff like that? Um, or like finding places or festivals to advertise at?
SPEAKER_02Um I created a list based off of like writers digest, and there's just signs some different lists that float around for um book festivals that include kids' books and adult books. And I have a spreadsheet. I like to keep track of things. So um then I just, you know, put them when they typically are and when, you know, like last year when they were expecting admissions or not admissions, applications. Um, so I just kind of have a spreadsheet where I'm keeping track of things. And um, if it's within driving distance, I'll apply.
SPEAKER_04Do you feel like your publisher is giving you any support, or do you feel like it's at this point mostly like self-driven?
SPEAKER_02I know the support is there as far as they're the ones sending it for the the reviews and things like that. That's something that I couldn't do. Um but the the the image that lots of movies give where you're being put on book tours and the publisher pays, you know, for all of that stuff. That's not reality in picture book world, at least not for me. Um I mean, my publishers up until now have been pretty small. So So um I can I certainly have the publicity department that I can ask questions and all of that stuff. So there's support, but you know, it's a new it's a new world where everyone in publishing is working so hard that I feel like I need to be doing stuff on my own. And I like to do it. I mean, I love doing book festivals and I like doing book store events, so I don't mind doing that stuff. I really enjoy it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I feel like editors are just, you know, they want that. They want that, but then the authors uh and illustrators, you know, you want the support. It's just, you know, who's gonna, who's gonna take the lead, who's gonna make that, you know, move the needle. It's so I think especially for new authors, it's so confusing and people feel so intimidated by having to do the marketing uh in any form for their book because you know, I know a lot of us are introverts and putting yourself out there is tough. So like kudos to you guys for like me.
SPEAKER_02And I'm I'm glad Lav does the videos and the reels and all that stuff. But that is not my cup of tea whatsoever. I will do posts on Instagram and Facebook and Blue Sky, but uh again, there's just so many different avenues that you just feel like you're shouting into the yeah, yeah, the cloud.
SPEAKER_01Definitely. I feel like it can get quite overwhelming as well because you just don't know what's going to work and what which you know audience is going to connect with you at what time. So it's nice to put stuff out there and both Deborah and I just reshare each other's stuff whenever we're posting, so that you know, we're both kind of shouting into the this together. But it's it's great, and I get it. It's because you know, there's it's it's an there's an overwhelming number of books that's gonna come out. So you never really know what's going to catch someone's eye. So, you know, you just you just do what you can.
SPEAKER_02And I would love to give a shout out to my editor. When she acquired the book, initially I called it Sunday Night Blues because I I had envisioned just kind of lots of little wordplay with musical terms. I thought that would be a lot of fun. And when she acquired it, she's like, okay, there's one thing we're going to do, and that is change the title to Sunday Scaries. And I'm like, oh, really? Why? She's like, Google it. So I did, and I realized it's it's a feeling that we've all had, but I never knew it being called Sunday Scaries. And she's like, it is such a buzzword right now. And I mean, I think it's tied. There's a commercial, I think it's tied. Even my one of my sisters texted me during the Super Bowl. She's like, Oh, they just used the term Sunday Scaries. I'm like, I know. So my editor was brilliant when she's like, it is going to be called Sunday Scaries, period. I'm like, okay.
SPEAKER_03What a functive term for it, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It is a very I knew it was a common feeling. I didn't realize there was like this term for it. Um, so um, I want to give credit to you know, Gianna for insisting on the title change. And then again, the ill the the cover is just adorable with the little hands grabbing at Josie. So laugh. I I'm so thrilled with it. So I do think that it's catchy. So hopefully it'll grab the eyes of a lot of people as they're you know browsing in bookstores or or perusing online as we try to shout into the universe.
SPEAKER_03I hope so too. I'm excited for your guys' release. Um I I think just talking about, you know, like getting your book acquired and and working on it, I know there's a lot of opaqueness in the industry regarding what authors and illustrators make for a given book. Um, would you guys mind sharing the range of advances you've been offered for your various projects? Because I think you've both done a fair amount. Um, and what that was different about the deals that involve bigger versus smaller budgets.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, so with me, um, my advances have ranged from 2,500 to um a little bit over 10. I think it's 12. Um, and it's all based on the size of the publisher. So the bigger publisher has given me more than the little publishers. So um, and I think that's pretty much in line with most of the uh picture book authors that I know. It it's typically between that 3,000 and 10,000 range, again, for the people that I know who we uh share that information. I'm sure there's authors who get more, but um they're probably much more established than I am.
SPEAKER_01With illustrators, it could be, you know, it could range anywhere between for picture books specifically, it could range anywhere between like five to sometimes $30,000, $35,000. So that's that's a really wide range. And again, like as what Deborah said, it could be the publisher, you know, the size of, you know, uh the say not the sales per se, but like what they assume the book might um do with numbers. Uh so there's a lot of factors that go into budgets as well. And I think for chapter books, it's actually quite different as well, uh, with illustrators because the illustrations are in black and white. Um, they're not sort of like a 50-50 balance, I guess, with chapter books, um, the way that they are in picture books. So they can, the budgets can be really variable, really, really variable.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I'm sure a lot of it it helps that you guys have some great agents. Um, I know I I I want to give a shout out because the bookend YouTube channel that James McGowan does with Jessica Faust, I thought was tremendously helpful when I was first starting out. I they seem great. And I've heard so many good things about the Cat Agency Lab. Um, I'd love to hear like your experience getting picked up by them.
SPEAKER_01So shout out to my agent, Eliza. I adore her. I think she's amazing. She's such a great cheerleader support system. Um, and just a really, you know, just a really great teammate to have um back for you as an illustrator because there's so many things like, you know, I think Suzanne mentioned early on that a lot of us are introverts and sometimes you just, you know, there's certain things that you just don't know how to address or how to ask for, you know, whether it's like what you think you're worth, whether it's things in your contract that maybe kind of make you question certain things. Or and it's just really nice to have somebody who you can talk about these things freely with and, you know, um address some of that, do some of the work that perhaps you might be uncomfortable doing yourself. Um so I was in animation for a long time before, you know, moving completely to books. I was also illustrating books, but it was something that I was doing off hours, you know, kind of like indulging in it, because um with animation and in leadership, you know, as you steadily um as your responsibilities increase, you tend to not draw as much. And I think I was starting to realize that I really just wanted to draw and just be creative again. And I experienced um a bit of burnout and then decided to take a bit of a break and just think about, you know, just kind of re-u-align myself a bit and think about what I wanted to do next and just focus on drawing, just enjoy the process and not think so much about, you know, deadlines or like, you know, um deliverables and all of that stuff. And I found myself just feeling really, really good and really, really happy. And it so happened that Eliza reached out to me at that precise point, which is really destiny. Yeah, it was just amazing. The timing of it was just, you know, the right person, the right time. And I'd always kind of been on the fence about um representation just because I didn't have a lot of awareness about it, and I wasn't really, I hadn't taken a deep dive into publishing just as yet. So to me, um, I was open to having a chat. So we did we got on a call and it was just it was amazing. I could just, you know, ask for everything and we had a really good discussion, and I felt like we were on the same page about just everything. So um I decided to take the, you know, take the leap of faith and um go for it. And I think it's been just an incredible decision. The agency is amazing, um, very encouraging, very supportive, and also just connecting with all of the other artists and authors within the agency has been amazing because you know, if you're going through things on your project, you've got work in progress that you want to share, and you just want to get just some instant feedback from you know a group of people who you really just admire and respect. It's yeah, I'm really thankful for that. And of course, Eliza as well. So yeah. How did she find you? From what I remember, I think she said that she'd been following my work for a while and had just decided to to reach out, which was yeah, I think I just I feel like I just live under a rock for most days. So so uh to hear that, I was like, oh my god, that that's amazing. That's insane. Thank you so much for reaching out. And um, yeah, so that's I guess that's how she she found me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What a great story. And how flattering to have like an agent fangirling over you. And it's beautiful. Like I get it. Honestly, I'm so lucky. Yeah, that's amazing. Um, and what was your story, Deborah? You were querying, I believe, correct?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I queried for a very long time. So I wrote my first manuscript, um, gosh, in 2009. And I didn't sign with my first agent until until 2017. And then it was a year and a half and five manuscripts before I got my first offer for freaky funky fish. So um, and it was my fifth manuscript with um with my agent. I I can't tell you. I mean, that was my 15th picture book that I not just quickly wrote, that I wrote and revised and polished. So it took me a long time to um A, find representation and then B to actually get um my first, yes, with a picture book contract. So um, but I mean I just did it the querying, you know, just following agents. I at that time I was on Twitter, that's where actually I was running PB Pitch, um Twitter pitch party. I was a co-founder of PB Pitch, and it was in 2017 that um an editor who was becoming an agent that I wasn't aware of, she started hurting um pitches. And so I messaged her saying, um, are you able to send submission guidelines? Because it looked like she was an editor. She's like, Oh, I have a big announcement in the next week. So anyway, she became an agent and then I ended up submitting to her and signed with her. Um and then she left, she left Bookends, and then I just stayed with Bookends and went to James McGowan. And that's how um, but yeah, that was back in 2017. So after querying a solid seven or eight years, taking some breaks, realizing I needed to re probably start some, you know, once some stories didn't get any traction, then it's like I probably need to write new stories and things like that. But um, it was a long journey.
SPEAKER_03I feel that I've been querying for I think it'll be seven years this year. Yeah. I think we can both relate to that more than love.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, and and and truthfully, most writers I know, well, I would say at least 50% of the writers I know, um, it's probably right around that seven to ten year mark before their first, and this is picture books, um, their first picture book comes out. So uh it is normal, it is normal to be querying for many, many, many years.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we've heard so many different journeys, you know, now that we've been doing the podcast, and that's been my favorite part of this is that everyone, everyone has their own unique journey. And you know, it it's just so this industry is so crazy.
SPEAKER_02It is. It is it I love it. It's so much fun, but it is also so hard and so odd.
SPEAKER_03I feel like everyone has this like like idea of like, oh, once I get an agent, I've made it. But I feel like every agent is very different, every deal is very different, every journey is very different. Um, I'm curious, what is your guys' relationship with your agent like? Not not like uh on a super personal level, but um, could you talk a little bit about like how you communicate with your respective agents, what communication turnaround time looks like, like sort of the vibe? Um, I guess just to show like to kind of normalize how different they are and to give people an idea of what they should expect when they have an agent that they like that is doing their job well.
SPEAKER_01To me, I think it's everything is kind of based on really open communication and trying to make sure that you're both on the same page about things. So Eliza and I connect um pretty regularly, I would say, um, over everything from like new projects, possible new work, um uh contracts, you know, um, if it's just really good to have someone else's eyes on some of these things and someone who has a deep awareness of the industry and what to ask for, I guess. Um and so yeah, we discussed all of these things pretty frequently. I I think it's an initiative from both sides, to be honest. Like it's you you you need to give if you want to get back, I guess, you know. So just I try to keep things really clear, communication, communication-wise, if there's going to be any anticipated like changes in timelines for projects, um, just keeping each other aware of that so that she's able to go out there and you know ask for more time or you know, maybe negotiate. Um, so yeah, I I I love that it's really collaborative and it it has been for me in my instance, and I yeah, I'm really appreciative of that.
SPEAKER_03When you say you talk frequently, do you mean like once a week, once a month? Like what is frequent for you?
SPEAKER_01Right. I think um it depends on the project, to be honest. Like some projects, you know, are just really smooth sailing and there's really no hiccups, and then some might might need a quick chat. So it could just be a spontaneous, like, hey, are you available? Or, you know, something that we're just communicating over Slack or something like that. So um it could be once a week, but sometimes it could just be maybe once a month. Um, yeah. And then we do have like catch-ups just about, you know, where my work is at, or like when I'm feeling like, okay, maybe we need to relook at the cat page and put up some of the new pieces, or she might be like, let's update your portfolio and let's put in some of the newer stuff. Um, so yeah, I think it's it's it's a really good flow. I guess it's not as structured in the sense that I'm not planning it in my calendar, but I know that I can reach out to her at any point of time and that she's gonna be available to yeah, discuss things.
SPEAKER_02That's actually pretty similar for me too. Um I know that if I have a question, uh, we generally communicate through email, unless there's something we need to talk through or forget an offer, then then that that becomes a phone call. But generally speaking, it's if I have a question, um, I have I'm co-agented with Sophie Shoemaker, who spells her name a little bit differently than mine, so we are not related, and James McGowan. Um and if if I have a question, I email it both of them, one of them, depending upon who gets to it first. Um, but within 24 hours, I usually have a comment. Um, if it's a specific question, or if it's like, here's a manuscript, I'd love some feedback on. It's like, okay, great, you know, we'll put it in our queue. I mean, it's it they always acknowledge my email very quickly, which is wonderful. Um I always schedule a call at the beginning of the year, um, just to kind of like talk about like where my brain is at, what I'm thinking, and things like that. Um, if I ever feel the need to call, um, you know, I'll email them and it's great we do it, but uh it's not we don't have like once a month we chat or you know by email or anything like that. It's just it's kind of like whatever's going on, whatever we need. Um so yeah, it's it's it's when when we need it, we will communicate, but it's not like um very regular, I guess. It's it's not a schedule.
SPEAKER_03You're not sending each other memes or anything throughout the day. No, no.
SPEAKER_02And you know, and and it's I I think there are some people who have agents like that. Um I think that there's several clients that do that with James and Sophie, but I it's just not my style. I mean, I'm just like I work, I'm very independent, all that stuff. So I think that um it it's working great for us. So um, you know, it works. It works. I I don't need them as a friend if that means anything. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03Um gosh, with as many people as agents represent, I could imagine it would be very hard for to find any agent that's gonna act like that.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. So um, but I'm very and again, I am not a um lawyerly type person and a numbers person. These royalty statements, this is I've got four three different publishers now and seem to be four. You would think royalty statements would be similar. Each one, I I it's it's a completely different language to me. I just I open it up and then I'll be like, okay. I do have a couple questions, you know. So it's just funny. I'm so glad to have an agent or agents who deal with that stuff because it's not where my brain goes. Um and I'm also a very introvert and I don't like conflict. So if if there's something that I love the fact that I have an agent, if I need them to address something with an editor, that they will do that. Um because that's not my strong point. So it is great to have that person um as a partner on my side, um, looking out for my interests. And I am so grateful that agents do that.
SPEAKER_03I'm glad you guys both found agents that really work for you. Um I'm curious, when you had your agent call, are there things that you wish you had asked? And what are some things that you would recommend someone listening asking if they were to get an agent call?
SPEAKER_01Um, Deborah, do you want should I okay, I'll take this one first. Um for me it was really spontaneous. So I I I don't think I I don't think it landed uh with me that it was like an agent call. So I went in really, really relaxed. Um, I had a bunch of questions, which I thought um I was really curious about. And Eliza and I both had talked about, she said, you know, ask me anything, like be really transparent about everything that you have on your mind about what you expect out of representation. And um so yeah, I think for me personally, I love working on projects that I deeply connect with. And so um I'd love to be able to have a quick look if the publisher is happy to share, if the author is happy to share as well, like an initial manuscript or whatever's available when I am being considered for a project. Um, and if I connect with it, I'm I know that okay, I'm gonna be really sold on this, I'm gonna really want to work on this. And so being on the same page about projects that come your way with your agent, I think is really important. Um, so that's something that I would really recommend to illustrators looking for that. Like if you know the kind of work that you want to do and you're able to communicate that with your agent, your agent knows how to, you know, filter, I guess, like, you know, what comes your way and what to say no to, I guess. Um, and then second to that, I would probably say transparency about budgets and what your worth is. Um, like some that's something that I struggle with, and I know other illustrator friends have also struggled with in the past, especially now. I feel like there's a lot more conversation happening about budgets and you know, things like that. But um, when I first started, it wasn't it wasn't like that. So it was a bit more vague, I guess, or much more varied. And so having an idea or and someone who who knows perhaps what picture books are receiving and has a has a has an idea of the range that um uh works for a picture book, but also what your worth, like your work's worth might be, um, to give you a better idea of like where you stand with that. I think being open about that and knowing that the person's on your team, that's a that's a good thing to discuss with your agent as well. Yeah, on that agent call. Yeah. It's a great answer.
SPEAKER_02For me, um, you know, communication style, um, frequency of communication, um, you know, uh, those are definitely questions to ask. And um, I've always asked for uh if I can reach out to some of their clients just to find out. So I think that's always very important to ask. Um it was so long ago that I was querying. I don't really remember. Um, if they are a newer agent, um Uh I think it's very important to know if they're at an agency with some experienced agents because I do think that there's a lot of people who want to put out their hat and call themselves agents. But if they've never agented before, um, if they're not, if they're trying to do it solo, I think don't think they'll have the context. So I do think an agency with a record of sales um is very important, or if it's a new agent that, you know, have they agented at a different agency? I think the experience and the context are very important. So um just to be wary of new agents if they're not at an agency where they might be getting mentored. That's a good tip.
SPEAKER_04I'm just curious if like if you guys would work together again, how often do you work with the same like illustrator or author? Or do you just is this it? Is like this your project and then you go your separate ways. How does that how does that work? Does it depend on how the book does?
SPEAKER_00Just gonna put this out into the universe that I would love to work with Deborah again if there's anyone listening.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I I have visions for more Josie's stories. So we will see. I'm here for it. Yeah. Again, a lot of it relies on how the book sells. Um uh Freaky Funky Fish and Peculiar Primates are companion books with um with Running Press Kids, my first publisher. So um, those are two books that I worked with the same illustrator because they they are meant to be companions. So I was grateful that Claire Powell did both of those books because, you know, again, the illustrators, the illustrations make our these books so much of what they are. So um I would absolutely if love, um, if I can come up with a good storyline for Josie, I would really hope that love would agree to.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Oh my goodness, I would be honored. I'd love to be considered for it. I would just love, I'm just gonna put it out there again. Like, you know, if anyone's listening, yeah. Right. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um, no, her work is amazing. I um it's fun to see a character come to life. It's really, really fun. It's really fun to see words come to life. Um, I have been so amazed um with all of my books. Um, you know, I wrote a book about the wind. And how an illustrator takes those words and makes something physical out of it. It's just it is the most amazing experience to get that email from your editor. Do you want to see some first sketches? I'm like, yes. And um it it's such a fun process. It's a frustrating industry, but it is a fun, fun. Um frustrating is the wrong word. It's it's a interesting publishing is interesting. Um, but I can say the highlights uh is getting that contract or the offer, and then the when you get that email from your editor, we have her sketches. And then seeing the black and white come to color, it it's just I can't say how fun it is. It's just the most fun I've ever had. So love. Thank you so much. Josie is adorable, she's adorable. So can I just share where this Josie name came from?
SPEAKER_05Yes, please.
SPEAKER_02I've never written fiction. Well, I started writing fiction, and I'm like, oh, now I have I get to come up with a character name. So um I have three sons, and we've never found out with any of our boys if what the gender was. So um, when we were pregnant with our third, and I had a dream when I was pregnant with our first that we had two boys and a girl. So I was convinced our third child was going to be a girl. And so my husband and I couldn't agree on boy names, and like it doesn't matter. And we were gonna, um, Margaret was gonna be the name until about two weeks before um our third child was due. And my husband came home and he's like, you know what? I think it'd be fun to have a little Josie. Um, little Josephine, call her Josie. And I'm like, and I love the name because Joseph was the name that my parents were gonna name their first boy, and they never had a boy. So I'm like, oh gosh, Josephine, Josie would be so cute. And then our third child was a boy, so we never used it. So now I'm using all these names when I read whenever I write kitchen. I'm like, hmm, what name can I come up with? It was fun to make up a name, and that's what Josie. Josie was going to be the girl that I never had. So gosh. Yeah, so there's Josie. So she was gonna be the daughter that I never had, but I love my son, Chateau. I love that.
SPEAKER_04I love this so meaningful too that you got to, you know, bring something in and the love got to like bring her to life. It's such a magical process in so many ways.
SPEAKER_02Just it it is. Magic is the right word. It is just magical um to see something that I've I always write my first draft in handwriting and type it up, but you know, just something that's black and white to become, you know, this. It's just, I don't know. It is magic. Magic is the right word.
SPEAKER_03It's for anyone listening. She's holding up the beautiful cover that is about to come out. Um, before we let you go, could we get you to pitch the book to anyone looking for a gorgeous illustrated uh picture book sometime in August? Sure.
SPEAKER_02This is a per Sunday Scaries is a perfect book for back to school. And for all of those kids who have that touch of anxiety that I think many of us face, um, Josie and her parents also experience Sunday Scaries. And uh the book is about how the family turns the Sunday scaries around and Monday isn't quite as bad as it used to be. Amazing.
SPEAKER_04I am putting oh go ahead. I'm definitely gonna pick it up for my five-year-old who's gonna enter kindergarten this fall. This seems perfect for yeah, something to help her.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there is back there, there are tips in the back matter. Um, I worked with a school counselor, I'm not a counselor, but you know, I just wanted something helpful. Um, when I had them when I was a child, um we didn't talk about our feelings. I don't know if that was my family or it's just back then in the 70s and early 80s. I I don't know. I just felt like you bottled up your feelings. So I just really wanted to let families know that they're not alone when their kid is going through this. Um, because I know there's many, many kids who go through this. And um so I it's a sweet book, it's humorous, but I think it's also going to be helpful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, definitely. I will put that link in the show notes for anyone interested in pre-ordering or uh ordering, depending on when you listen to this. And yeah, thank you so much, Deborah and Lau for being here. It was so nice to meet you both. I can't wait for your book to come out.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. This was this was a lot of fun. Bye.