Publishing Pals
Welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this oddly gatekept, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
Publishing Pals
Picture Book Writing Basics
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Hello!
In this episode we’re talking about the craft of writing a picture book!
Here are some of the authors, artists, and other things we brought up during the episode. Just a disclaimer - please do not take our word as fact. The publishing industry is always changing, and often we are talking about things we are remembering from a while ago or have heard from others. It’s always important to do your own research! If we realize after the fact that we have gotten anything wrong, we will do our best to correct it in the show notes.
Find Maria: https://www.mariaoglesbyart.com/
Find Katie: https://www.katiedwyerillustrations.com/
Here are the links for Emily Van Beek, the agent from our agency deep dive:
Website and where to query: https://www.foliojr.com/emily-van-beek
Publisher’s Marketplace Page: https://tinyurl.com/4f6jphar
MSWL: https://manuscriptwishlist.com/mswl-post/emily-van-beek/
An interview with Emily: https://tinyurl.com/2tx6e9tn
Katie’s substack where you can find PB writing tips: https://katiedwyerillustrations.substack.com/
Writing picture books, the main book we were talking about: https://tinyurl.com/52t7czh9
NoVa Bookstores:
Birch Tree Books: https://www.birchtreebookstore.com/
Middleburg Books: https://www.middleburgbooks.com/
A bunch of the books we mentioned:
Picture Books:
A Sick Day for Amos McGee: https://tinyurl.com/3b3swzwj
Bob Shea: https://www.bobshea.com/about
Corey Tabor: http://www.coreyrtabor.com/
Awe! https://chanastiefel.com/books/awe/
Giraffe is Too Tall for This Book: https://tinyurl.com/3wasn8uj
Hello, Ocean! https://tinyurl.com/mvxmyrxd
Noodles on a Bicycle: https://tinyurl.com/32spwzbh
Home in a Lunchbox: https://tinyurl.com/5n8pph5b
Middle Grade:
Kindred Dragons: https://tinyurl.com/49fzwpff
The Babysitter’s Club Graphic Novels: https://tinyurl.com/2tdet957
Animorphs: https://tinyurl.com/44vtcwrz
A Wrinkle in Time: https://tinyurl.com/2avf9j34
YA:
Dragonsong (dragonriders of Pern): https://tinyurl.com/u4nchrm4
The Faraway Inn: https://tinyurl.com/4jta6k7e
New Adult:
Divine Rivals duology: https://tinyurl.com/9naw8uyy
Hello, I'm Katie. And I'm Maria. And welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two Pals talk about publishing. For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published. Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this oddly gatekeep, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry. And today we are talking about uh the craft of writing a picture book.
SPEAKER_00So I'm excited to talk with you about this, Katie, because I feel like the structure of picture books is so drastically different from plotting like a save the cat style middle grade or YAR adult novel. Um, and I know there are a lot of rules. There's a lot of things I know you've mentioned to me over the years of like things to keep in mind or like things to speak about when considering like word count or theme. Um, and I I guess I just I'm excited to have this opportunity to like pick your brain about it, but also like maybe to hear you like I I guess speak about it a little more at length because I know you've done a lot of research and you've read a lot of books and you have I three, too soon to be three uh picture book deals. Uh hopefully three. We'll see. In the works, hopefully. Fingers crossed. Um definitely two though. Two coming up. Yeah, you've had a lot of success um in the picture books that you've written. So I guess first off, like I what is are the key differences, do you think, between writing a longer like novel or novella versus writing a picture book? Which I mean, it seems like the standard used to be, you know, 500 words or less and now it's even shorter, right? And I know yours have been quite short.
SPEAKER_01I like to stick with a limited word count because I I like picture books like that. So it's really more of a taste. And also I lean heavily into my illustrations for storytelling because I started as an illustrator and then I began writing. And so I pair those two things together. So I, when I'm making my story, creating it, I don't want to say writing because when I tell stories, it's visually and through text. Um, but I try to rely on both the text and the imagery. Um, but I don't really know what the difference between writing a novel and a picture book is because I haven't written a novel. So you could probably speak more to that. Um, obviously, the biggest thing is word count because they're so much shorter. Picture books are typically 32 to 40 pages. Um and for fiction, typically it should be 500 words or less. One of my books coming out, I think, is like 200 words. It's very minimal. Um, and then for nonfiction, the goal is kind of like a thousand words or less. So it's a little bit longer. And then for things like added back matter, that is like a separate thing.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say, does that include the back matter?
SPEAKER_01Right. No, it does not include the back matter. So that would be like or or like the um author's note or anything like that. It's just within the story.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's funny. I was looking at agents to um to talk about for agency deep dive. And uh, one of the agents uh that takes picture books, Rosemary Stimola, um, under her not looking for tab, she put on her anti-MSWL, which is like things agents specifically don't want. She put picture books more than a thousand words. I I feel like that's like one of the biggest mistakes of people who are new to writing picture books is I I feel like a key part of it is like what you were saying, to let the illustrations tell a big part of the story, and that it's people thinking, oh, I have to write the entire story and explain everything and explain what the illustration should be in the actual text, not just in some art notes. Um, and then they have these really long picture book texts that are aren't industry standard.
SPEAKER_01Right. I think a lot of people do that. Um, but I think it's really important to remember that you need to rely on the illustrations. And there's like a phrase show, don't tell. So to go through if you're just writing and you're not illustrating, every word matters, no matter if in a picture book it matters. So you have to read through it so many times and think, is this word needed? Is this sentence needed? Does it drive the story forward? So that's one thing that you need to always keep in mind. Is what I'm writing driving the story forward? If it's not, then I cut it out. Do I need three words here or can I just use one? Can do I need to describe this or can I let the illustrator do it? And also, you don't need to write illustrator notes for every single thing that's happening.
SPEAKER_00Um as an illustrator, please don't. It's not as fun.
SPEAKER_01It's really not because you want the illustrator to interpret the story how they see it and be passionate about it because that's gonna come through. And they might see it completely differently than you do, and it could be better because that's their job, right? Is illustrating um and being able to visually storytell and take your words and create something out of it. So to get a manuscript that says every single page, it's gonna show this and it's gonna show this, and they look like this, then it kind of takes out like the creativity of it, which is not what you want to do for an illustrator. You want to let them fly. Obviously, sometimes you can write illustrator notes if things are necessary to the story. Um, but you just have to be very careful when you're reading through and making sure that you're um only saying what drives the story forward, only saying what is absolutely necessary and key.
SPEAKER_00And I think too, like when you're writing a traditional book and you know, you sell it to an editor and et cetera, um obviously like it goes from being a very private, solitary sort of art to a collaborative group project very quickly. And there's a lot of things that you have to like kind of sacrifice that may have been ideas or, you know, feelings that you had about the book in order for it to, you know, become the best version of itself. And I think children's books, for if you're a picture book writer, um, it's an even more amplified version of that because you're almost co-creating a project without knowing who your co-creator is. And you're, you're, you have to kind of like have that flexibility. I feel like the more you want to control what's in the illustrations, the less freedom you know, the art director is going to have, the less freedom the illustrator is going to have, the less wiggle room there's going to be. So it's it seems like a really difficult way of working to to like know that you need to leave some stuff uh up to the imagination, but not specifying what it is, but keeping it open. Like it, how how do you kind of cultivate that skill? And are there certain things you kind of keep in mind when you're writing?
SPEAKER_01Well, I always write with the intention of illustrating. So I can't really speak to writing and not planning on illustrating. I have had the thought like, what if I write something and my style doesn't fit with it? Would I have somebody else illustrate it? And that's a hard concept for me because my control issues where I'm like, I want, I want to know what it's gonna look like. I want to have control over this.
SPEAKER_00And you're in a you're in a quick group with picture book authors too, that don't all illustrate. So I'm sure you've you've seen some of it before, even if you haven't written in that way yourself.
SPEAKER_01Right. And that's something that um I'm in a writing critique group and a separate illustration critique group. So with a writing critique group, a lot of times some of my feedback is you don't need to say this, like you don't need to lose art note. And could you change this and just let the illustrator show this? Um, which is something valuable because I think if you really want to make it in this industry and you're an author, you have to be flexible with that. Obviously, you need to keep your values and the core of the story, but you also need to be flexible with changing words and moving things around. And I've had to experience that with my editors as well, where I sacrifice certain things. Or if something is like, no, I really want this, then standing up to that in a professional way. And hopefully your team is great, mine have been great, and they'll be flexible as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think inflexibility is one of the biggest ways to shoot yourself in the foot in the industry because it it's so collaborative as soon as you, you know, become agent it and make it to a spot where you're thinking about book deals.
SPEAKER_01Right. And you have to trust that your team knows better than you because they've been doing it so much longer and have worked with so many more books than you ever will. So they know the market, they know what sells, they know kids, you know, and so to trust them, and that's a really important part of like working with a team as well as having trust in in them. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Figure out where your line in the sand is and make sure that it's not anywhere towards the front. It's far, far back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Because if if you're gonna say, no, I'm absolutely not budging on this, they're not gonna want to work with you again.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um, or if someone gives you feedback or an RR and then, you know, your thought is like, well, I like it this way. And it's like, that's okay. But maybe, you know, self-publishing is your route as opposed to traditional publishing. So I'm curious, like, um, because I know you told me there was a book that you read that was all about picture book craft. And I I remember thinking, like, oh, picture books are so short though. Like, what are you gonna put in in like a book? Like, it's I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I feel like I get a lot of um, I mean, SCBWI is full of picture book writers. And I feel like I've I've talked to so many picture book writers that tell me how much more complicated it is. And you know, everyone, like a pet peeve of theirs is people saying, like, oh, I could write a picture book in two minutes, you know, no problem. Oh my gosh. So for for people who are like thinky that way and uneducated in the ways of picture books, what are some like basic things that you would say um to those people who are like, hey, I could write a picture book in two minutes? Like, what what would you want to communicate to them?
SPEAKER_01Oh, if you know what if they tell me that, or if they're like, I wrote a picture book on a napkin, which has literally happened to me. I just keep my mouth shut because I'm like, okay, cool, because I don't want to get into it. And if they're they'll figure it out. If they really want it to be in the industry, they will figure it out. Um, but the book that you're talking about is called Writing Picture Books by Anne Whitford Paul. Um, and it's a fantastic book. Everybody recommends it. It's just like your basic 101 course on how to write picture books. And I've read it. I will read it again just to refresh myself because it's such helpful information and a good reminder of what you need to do and what you're looking for when writing a picture book. So, some of the main things that I would say um when is um thinking about your character. When you're writing your character, there are certain things you want to do. Like you are writing for kids. If you're writing a picture book, it's probably gonna be between the ages of three to seven or eight. And so you want to write something that is gonna speak to them, and they want to be able to see themselves within the pages of the book. So you want your character to relate to them. So you want to um them to be more childlike, to have a childlike voice, even if they're an adult, you still want them to be more childlike. Like um, for instance, um, A Sick Day for Amos McGee, that's a fantastic book. Um, that he's got to be what, like 60 years old and he works at a zoo, but he is so sweet and innocent, and he has a little bit of a naivety to him, that he is like a child. And so you can kind of see yourself within that character. So giving them a childlike voice, I think is really important. And also giving them agency. They need to be the ones to solve the problem and figure it out. Somebody should not come in and save them, like a parent or a caregiver. You want it to be that character who is facing the problem and figuring out how to problem solve. Um, but also not making them perfect. You want them to have flaws, just like any kid that's gonna read the book and also make them likable. And, you know, it's just like us as adults when we see someone who's like seems absolutely perfect, we know they're not perfect, but we're like, oh man, but we're drawn to characters who have flaws because we see ourselves in them. And kids are the exact same way. So what I like to do is make a character sheet. Um, and even though you know you have 500 words to work with in your character sheet, you want to make sure that they're like a real person or a real animal, whatever. Um, and so I like write things about them. How old are they? What do they like to do? What are their hobbies? What are their personality traits? What are they wearing? What are their favorite colors? And the more you give life to them, the more they'll come alive within the pages of the book when you're writing, because you're realizing you're writing words about this person that you've created in your mind, as opposed to just like this distant idea of a person.
SPEAKER_00And quick insert. Well, some of this is on Katie's Substack as well, and we'll link that in the show notes if you want to subscribe. Um, because I think you did do a post on that and you had a list of character questions.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I think part of it too is like a lot of people who think writing a picture book is easy don't know kids super intimately, um, or they want to communicate a lesson to these children. And so I know just like when you're writing a novel, I think people, because the word count is so much higher, people assume novels are complex and they take that character development a little bit more seriously. Um, so you know this person has to have like a want, a need, they need to have initiative, they need to, you know, have people come in. You don't want a Mary Sue or a day of sex mocking a um someone who's perfect or someone who where, you know, they're in a tough situation and something comes in and solves everything for them. Um, but I think with picture books, people tend to think of kids a little bit more simply, where uh especially if they don't know them well, um, or they think of them as, you know, because kids have so little autonomy when they're that young, um, as, you know, like an object to be taught a life lesson to. Um, and kids don't want to feel like the subject of an educational lesson when they're reading a book, right? Just like, you know, in any novel, you're going to have some kind of central theme, but you you don't want that to be really clear that that's the reason you're reading the story. And so I think the trick too is like getting all that stuff in there that you need in a complex novel into a picture book that's like 300 words ideally. But I'm I'm curious as to as like does it go over like writing tips of like how to go about it? Does it go over like um rhythm or you know, like sentence structure? Because it's it's such a low word count. I you have to choose those words so carefully, it seems. Whereas I feel like almost the easy slash hard part with writing novels is like you just write and write and write and write and then you like paradise from dense it. But ideally you're careful with your word choice, but not so careful that you agonize over each sentence to make it perfectly crafted.
SPEAKER_01Are you asking if this if writing picture books goes over in the sentence structure and rhythms? Yeah, yeah. It does. Yeah, it actually goes over um rhyme and um the different the different types of rhyme.
SPEAKER_00Um actually, maybe that's a good topic because I feel like I I've heard multiple people say like no rhyming picture books or or multiple agents say they don't want rhyming picture books because if it's not done well, it can be really tough to sell.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, that's very true. I think people write rhyming picture books that don't actually know how to rhyme. I don't write rhyming picture books because I don't know what I'm doing. So I don't even try. Um yeah, and I've read other people's books that are rhyming that I'm like, this is not working. Um but also I think that not a lot of people are profession or not professionals, but um masters of rhyme and editors don't want to take on that task because maybe that's not their strengths either.
SPEAKER_00I'm curious, um, do you think picture books like do pare down or eliminate some of the structure of novels, even though because I feel like it's so condensed, like maybe some stuff gets eliminated. Like, do picture book characters tend to have a want? And then in pursuing that want, they maybe realize what they need or they grow and change to accommodate like what they actually need? Um, or do you think it's a little bit more straightforward where they want something and then they they learn something from that want, but it's it doesn't involve like two different objectives? Like, like how do you think maybe children's books pair down some of the complexity of novels? Or do you feel like they don't? And it's it's just like uh it expertly crafted when it's done well in those few words.
SPEAKER_01Um, I think it can go either way. They can see something that they want um and then realize that they need something else that can happen. I don't think that there's like one specific thing that needs to happen in picture books. There is kind of a formula, but there's so many different picture books, and kids are so much smarter than we give them credit for and intuitive, and they understand a lot. Um, and so there's like a whole debate on being didactic in picture books, where it's people are just trying to teach a lesson to kids and they're so straightforward, and that's not necessarily what kids need or want. They don't want to be talked down to. They go to school for like seven hours a day. The last thing they want to do is open a picture book where, you know, it's like teaching them a lesson about being kind. And of course, those things are really important. And I think the key in writing a picture book is to be able to convey that message of being kind in a way that is entertaining, but also not just straightforward and preachy to them. Um, and then there's also books that don't teach a lesson at all that are just funny or goofy. And kids love those books. My kids, especially, I have three boys, and they all like those really humorous books that don't necessarily teach any kind of lesson.
SPEAKER_00Do you have a favorite one that you think is especially well written that you you would recommend as like a mentor text for people writing funny picture books?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think Bob Shea is hilarious. He writes hilarious picture books. Um yeah, my son and I have spent a lot of time laughing at his books. He would be a good person to follow. Uh I would have to think and maybe look at my bookshelf a little more. Yeah, Bob Shea's a great one.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I don't really think for books. I was just taking your way for these because I don't have any recommendations.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm trying to think because like I have a bookshelf and then my kids have a bookshelf. Um, and on my bookshelf is all like the lyrical, beautifully illustrated books. And then on my kids' shelf is all like the really funny books. Corey Tabor is also another um, I don't know if I'm saying his last name right. T-A-B-O-R, Corey R. Tabor. Um, he writes really funny early readers and picture books like Mel Fell, that one a Caldecott honor um a few years ago. And they're not like outright ha ha funny, but they're just humorous and sweet, which is what I really love. And then I also love like the sarcastic humor of like John Clausen. I'm trying to think of some women funny writers. And I know I know some, but they're just like not coming off the top of my head because I just recommended three men and I want to shout out women.
SPEAKER_00Dude, the industry like just fawns over some of these picture book men. It's insane.
SPEAKER_01That's why they're always at the top of my mind because they're the ones that always get highlighted and get all the publicity and all the marketing, and it drives me insane. But I also recognize that their books are good, but they're not the only ones. Like, I really like John Clausen books and I really like um Bob Shea books, but they're also all three of them are white men. And all three of them are successful in the industry, and there's plenty more people who are BIPOC or women who just don't get highlighted, and it's a whole thing. I don't know if you're gonna cut this out or not. I'm going on a tangent because it like it frustrates me so much.
SPEAKER_00I think it's good to talk about. I could do like a whole episode just on that, honestly. No, please, like tangent away. Like I and I do think, you know, like it's it's wild because like most of the agents in the industry that you see are women and you know, you you think they'd want to look lift up women too. But I think also like some of the people controlling like the publishing houses are not. And it's it's wild the number of people that fill the industry versus the the number the how disproportionate that is to how people are represented in the industry.
SPEAKER_01It's wild. If you think of the industry like a pyramid where the people at the top are the most successful and the people at the bottom are you know the ones trying to break in, you're gonna start with the majority women. I can't remember the percentage. I read a percentage, but I wasn't sure if that was actually accurate or not. So I wouldn't want to quote it. But you mean at the bottom, right? Trying to break at the bottom, majority women. And then the further you get to the top, the women trickle out and it gets to be more men. And when you get to the very top, there's like probably a couple women and then so many men. Because if I just think off the top of my list, um off of like the most successful authors and illustrators, I can name off easily 10 men and a couple women who are as well known as them. Which is wild considering how many women there are versus men in the industry. And most agents. It's a lot of editors and art directors and librarians and teachers are all women. And I think it's actually like a systemic thing that a cultural thing that has infiltrated us for so many years that we're just unknowingly and subconsciously uplifting men. I've read statistics about how like um authors and illustrators that are asked to come visit schools are majority men. And these are people being asked by female teachers, female librarians. And they're all these men coming in, but there's so many women out there who are also trying to make it. And I've heard stories about like an author and an illustrator who have sat at a table at a conference, and all the librarians come up to the male illustrator and fawn over him. And then the female author who wrote the book is just kind of sitting there like, hi, wrote it. And then she's like completely ignored while they're fawning over the man. And I don't think that they do it subconsciously. I love librarians, I love teachers, I love editors, I think they're fantastic. They do like the most important job. Like I have three school age kids. I would give them all $5 million if I could for the work that they do. Like they're fantastic. And I know that they're not doing it intentionally. I think it's like subconscious, just what we've always been taught. It's just systemic. Internalized misogyny.
SPEAKER_00Um, do we want to maybe we can each like shout out a couple uh women that we've been reading recently, help help support women in the industry? Yeah. Okay. Um, well, I so I mean I read a little older. Um, but let me let me look through my Goodreads real fast and and find something. Oh, okay, okay. So I this is middle grade. It's not picture book. I don't have any picture books aside from um, we did just do an interview um with Deborah Shoemaker and Lava Nya Naidu, uh, that I think will be in a couple episodes from now. And their book, The Sunday Scaries, looks fantastic. So I'll shout that out, but that's the only picture book I've read recently. But I did read a middle grade that was like an Anne of Green Gables retelling with dragons. It's a graphic novel. It's called Kindred Dragons, and it's by Sarah Mencinga. Um, and it was gorgeously drawn. I loved the art for it. I thought it was so pretty. Um, and I I just it was a really visually enjoyable read. Um and I thought the story was cute. I I wasn't sure where it was going because it started off very Anne of Green Gables, and then it kind of progressively veered more and more off into like for saving dragons now, but I was here for it. I thought it was really fun. Um, and then in the in the YA and adult space, I um I just finished Ruthless Vows, which is the second part of a duology to uh Divine Rivals by Rebecca Ross, and I absolutely loved that. And now I'm reading The Far Away M by Sarah Beth Durst, which is uh like a cozy, I think it's gonna be a romantic C, but she always is very light on her romance. And this is, I think, more of a YA than it is uh her other two adults that I've read. And I'd recommend all of those. I think those are all fantastic female authors in the industry who are just chef's kiss. Boop boop.
SPEAKER_01I was totally listening, by the way. I was just at my bookshelf. I could do it.
SPEAKER_00I I figured you were grabbing something. I was trying to ramble a bit.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I have so many. I got have some books sitting here, but um DK Ryland, who you have such pretty taste in books.
SPEAKER_00I just want to say like every book you show me is gorgeous. So I know a lot of you people are listening, but you can just assume that anything she shouts out is going to be beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Oh DK Ryland, who is my agency sister. Um, she wrote Giraffe is Too Tall, which I think has a sequel, possibly a third one. And this is um a picture book that's just like really fun. And I love when the book changes orientation when it goes from like portrait to landscape and back and forth. I love when books do that. I've tried writing books like that. Um, hopefully one will come out one day. Um, but that's the fantastic one. She's really funny, and then Karina Lucan, who is pretty well known, but um, I'm oh my gosh, I'm obsessed with her work so much. She just had another book come out called Hello Ocean that is gorgeous. She has beautiful, amazing line work. Um one of my favorite works by hers is The Arguers, which was like years and years in progress before it actually got published, but she works traditionally and she's fantastic. Um Keel McLear is one of my favorite authors. She writes adult and for kids. Um and this book that I just got was written by her Noodles on a Bicycle, uh, illustrated by Gracie. I'm gonna say her last name wrong. Zang, Z-H-A-N-G. Um, and this one in Caldeca honor. And I I bought this book for the art because I was like, this is incredible, um, incredible illustration. It's done in ink and gulash. So I wanted to read it, and I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna really enjoy reading this book that much. I'm it might be one of those books where I'm just like looking at the pictures. But I read, which there are a lot of those, some books I just get and I literally just look at the pictures, and I'm like, oh, I should probably read the words because I get so entranced with the pictures. Um, but I read this book, and afterward, I was like, I need noodles. They sound so amazing to me that and learning about these delivery men on bicycles who would deliver noodles to families made me really hungry. And then I read it to my son, and I was like, I don't think he's gonna like this book because he likes really funny books, and it's not really that funny. And he sat there the entire time. And afterwards, he was like, Oh, what's this? What's this? That's cool. I want noodles. And so I have to give a big shout out to this book because not only did it entertain me, it entertained my humorous eight-year-old who likes laugh out loud funny books. Um, and then another one, this will be my last one, even though it could go on forever, is called Ah A W E. It's everywhere.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01It's it's gorgeous by Chana Stifle. Again, I'm probably saying her name wrong. I'm very sorry. And it's illustrated by Susan Gall. And it is core just like every page could be something that I put on my wall. And there's a gatefold in it, which is when the pages open out. Um and it's just it's incredibly beautiful. So there you go. I could do a million more, but I won't.
SPEAKER_00And we'll put links to all of these books in the show notes if you want to support other female authors and illustrators. Um I I know I tend to when I when I read, I tend to gravitate towards female authors, but I I need to do a better job when I do like grab graphic novels of looking for female author illustrators as well. I I just got a few new ones, so I'll I'll read them and I'll give them a shout out next episode if I end up really loving them. Uh I I found out there's a um, so like 30 minutes west of me, there's a really cute indie bookshop that I've really liked. And I thought that was the only one in the area, but um we ended up going like 30 minutes north last week, and I found there was another indie bookshop that is also very cute. Um, and I I got some graphic novels there, and they have a shop dog, and he's so adorable. Stop really he's like a wiener dog mix, and he's just so happy to be there. And I had the best time giving him scritches and looking at graphic novels. Oh my god. Um do you want to shout out the bookshops? Yes. Shout out to um uh it was Beach, it's either Beach or Birch Tree books in Leesburg. And I will I will link it in the show notes. So I apologize, whichever name I'm getting wrong. And then Middleburg Books, I think, is the other one. Um, and that one, I love the way the store is decorated because it's all like painted shelves, and then there's like a mural of flowers in the background behind the register, and like they went all super artsy with the way that it looks. Um and then, of course, Beecht Tree Books has a dog. So of course you would want to go there.
SPEAKER_01So automatic win. If there's a shop pet, I'm all in.
SPEAKER_00Dude, if I ever retire rich and have a shop, I'm totally getting shop pets. I want to bring my dog to work. My current dog pees too much to ever be a shop dog, but oh, mine as well.
SPEAKER_01I have two, they both do. They're yeah, special children, special children.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. But um, I guess I guess getting back to um Okay, yeah, we've totally lost Yeah, we got a little sidetracked, but in a good way, I think. It was fun. Um I I know you talked about um they suggest there's like a formula for like some types of picture books. What are some of those formulas for people who like are like, I know nothing about picture books. Where do I start? Like what like what does that plot sheet or whatever look like?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, I would say you want to look at it as kind of like a three-act structure. In act one, you're introducing the character and the problem. In act two, that character needs to try and solve the problem and fail. And then in act three, they end up there's a solution and they solve the problem. Um, and in picture books, the rule of and in illustration, the rule of three is very prominent where um visually things grouped in threes are good in illustrations. Also, when you're writing, typically you want to have your character try three times and fail three times before they actually come up to the solution. So that's the rule of three. And then, like I said, uh talking about your character, your character's the most important, making your character likable, giving them flaws, giving them agency. Um focus on that character, make your theme clear, whatever message you're trying to convey. Don't be overtly didactic where you're just preachy. But you want one theme. And if anything is like going off, if you if someone reads your book and they're like, I don't really know what this book was about, then you know you have a problem because you need to make it very clear this is what my book is about. You can have like little side messages and things like that, but it needs to have one clear theme. Um, and that's really important for editors too, because they need to know how they're gonna market the book. How are they gonna describe the book, where it's gonna sell, um, what are the markets? And so that needs to be very clear, not just for a storytelling standpoint, but also for a marketing standpoint. Um show, don't tell, which we already talked about. Sorry, were you gonna say something?
SPEAKER_00No, I was just gonna say one thing I've heard um uh a couple like agents suggest is write your query letter first so that you're pitching the book before you actually write the book. And that and then when your query, if your query doesn't match what you've actually written, alter it. But if you can't, yeah, if you can't write a succinct pitch, then your book needs work.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I have heard that as well. Yeah, that's a really good tip. Um, and then show don't tell, which we kind of already talked about, you know, when you use action or dialogue or certain details that allows the reader to experience the story rather than you just telling them what it is is really important. And then I would say don't underestimate kids. They're so smart, they're so imaginative and intuitive. Don't underestimate them and talk down to them. That's not what they want and that's not what they need. And then read lots of picture books. Read lots and lots of them. Especially if you don't find yourself around a lot of kids. Read what's out on the market today to give you an idea of what they're looking for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Being well read in the field that you want to break into, I cannot stress how important it is. Um, in in any, not just picture books, in in anything. Um, like if you're writing middle grade, you should be reading as much middle grade as you can. Um, I've been in a number of critique groups where the people writing things didn't read things in their field, and their writing comes off as like imitative of a time when they were reading those books. Um, and and it comes off as as outdated and maybe a little bit clunky. Like you want to like have a feel for what the vibe is and what people are trying to teach. Because I do think like, you know, if you haven't read a children's book since you were a child and you were a child in like the 60s or 70s, like picture books were dramatically different then. And something that might have sold in that time would not sell in this time.
SPEAKER_01I'm actually reading a wrinkle in time right now, and I'm really enjoying it. I'm almost done. I have one chapter left, I couldn't finish it last time. I had to go to sleep. Um, but I was just thinking about how different it is from what would sell today because I I was like, I don't know when this was written, but it had to have been like the between the 40s and the 60s. And then I looked and I think it was 1962 or 1964, and I could just tell the way that it was written, how they were talking. The overall story feel of it just felt like very retro. And I love it. I really enjoy it. Um, it kind of reminded me of like a Chronicles of Narnia type book.
SPEAKER_00Have you read Ring Call of the Time? I forget. No, I haven't, but I'm just like looking it up to be like, oh, is that a female author? And it is. It is a female author. Another shout out, too.
SPEAKER_01She actually has a biography about her. I don't know really anything about her, but it's actually a quintet of books. There's five of them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You never knew that. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01No, I never did either until I looked at the back of my book. And I'm like, there's four more books. Um, and there's a biography about her written by her um granddaughter, I think.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's cool.
SPEAKER_01So kind of fascinating.
SPEAKER_00Um no, I I guess like the required reading growing up, like I was just in some other bracket, and like I always knew about that one, but it was never something I had to read. Um I remember having to read like all the Lewis Carroll books, and oh gosh, I'm trying to think. I I feel like there wasn't a ton of required reading um growing up in kids' books outside of like classics, because uh I was homeschooled and I was constantly reading, and it was mostly like Animorphs by Kay Applegate, another female author. Um, but uh and like Dragon Riders of Pern, which in retrospect I was way too young to be reading. Um, but there there was a bunch of stuff at the library that I would get. And um, so my mom just kind of like crossed it off the list of like, oh, I need to make sure she's reading. She's like, she reads all the time, like let's move on to math, which she doesn't want to do. Um I I feel like I missed a lot of the required reading for kids' books um outside of a couple like middle school classes that I was signed up for. And then it wasn't until I got into high school that I was started getting assigned to the classics. And then by then you're kind of out of the kids' book space. So I I feel like I missed a lot of those.
SPEAKER_01No, I feel I actually feel the same because I was homeschooled until eighth grade and um I grew up in a Christian home. And so a lot of the books that I read were like very Christian themed. And although I did read for fun a lot of Babysitter's club, like every babysitter's club, and like the American girl books.
SPEAKER_00What do you think of the graphic novel adaptations? Do you like them? I haven't read them. Okay. I okay, I really liked it. So the one year I was working at Scholastic, they they had like a bunch of them out already. And I read like all of the first like six or seven, and then it was kind of embarrassing. I watched the Netflix show and it made me cry. Like I was like really invested in the babysitters club Netflix season, and I hope they do another one because I thought it was so wholesome and so sweet and so well adapted for present day. Um yeah, I think it's great.
SPEAKER_01I I have such a fondness for babysitter's club. Oh god, I just remember going to the mall, to Walden's books, which is no longer around. That was like the books, the mall bookstore. And I would go to the back right corner because that's where all the babysitter club books were, and I would always look to see if there were new ones. And I literally I read every single one that was out at that time. And I read the babysitter little sisters. I read all of them. And I had the game, I had a Marianne doll. Wait, there was a game? There was a game, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like a video game or a board game.
SPEAKER_01And I knew every single I knew the answer to every single thing. And I had a Marianne doll. I was obsessed.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, I love this. I need to like send you some of the graphic novels and like ask you like how much how they changed it.
SPEAKER_01Cause I didn't read I should just get one because I'm trying to read like some more middle grade. Um yeah. So I should just pick one up. I I'm sure they have some at the library. I should just get one. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, I'm excited to hear what you think about it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I know we've been rambling a lot about picture book stuff, but um, I I think that's like the basic overall gist if you're just getting started. We've got a lot of recommendations. We've got, you know, like some basics of like building blocks, we've got some do's and don'ts. Um, is there anything else that you would want to add for people thinking of writing a picture book?
SPEAKER_01Um, I would say just uh get in a critique group, immerse yourself within the picture book world, read a lot of picture books, just be within that realm. Don't isolate yourself, don't think I'm just gonna write a picture book and then, you know, write it and then think that you know the doors are gonna open. You have to really like support your other kid lit authors, join a critique group, get feedback, give feedback, practice. I think all of that's vital.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I absolutely agree with all of that. Okay, well, I think then we're ready for agency deep dive. Um so today we're going to be talking about um Emily Van Diek, who has been around. Sorry? I love her. I know, right? I was trying to find someone who like sold a lot of picture books.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she sold a lot. It's true.
SPEAKER_00Um and I wanted someone who was open to queries. So I was looking through a bunch of them today, and I'm like, oh, they're too successful, they're not open. But she is ranked number six in just children's overall on Publishers Marketplace, which is huge. And they rank up to the top 200, and then you stop getting ranked. So the fact that she's number six is like a very big deal. She's been selling books since 2004. Um, and she's still very, very active as an agent. Um she's also ranked um number two in international rights for Canada, uh, which makes sense because I believe she is part Canadian. Um, and she's ranked number seven in picture book fiction, which um is is also huge. Um, she's done 371 deals overall, and 52 of them are six-figure. Now, that doesn't mean those six-figure deals are all picture books. Um, looking through it, it looks like some of them are graphic novels, some of them are middle grades, but there are a number of six-figure picture book deals, which is wild because I know it's so hard to get six figures for a picture book. So she sold one this year and one last year on her six-figure list. So the one she sold this year is called Muck and Mud by Scott McGoon. And then it was to Folio Jr. Um or sorry, Folio Jr.'s sorry, it was at oh, it was to Scholastic. Sorry, I'm just skimming the publishing announcement. Um, and then last year she sold a um a picture book that was fiction um for six figures called A School Day for Amos McGee. And that was by Philip Stead and Erin Stead, and that was to Roaring Book Press.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, Philip and Erin Stead, they're the ones that did six days for Amos McGee that I was talking about.
SPEAKER_00Okay, okay. So I guess they're doing another one of those.
SPEAKER_01Um and that was a Caldecott winner.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, that makes sense then. Their next one would be really big. Um and there are a few of them that already have images. And um, I so she she also repped Home at a Lunchbox by Cherry Mo, who uh I went to college with. I had a couple classes with her. And I mean, we're we're never like close friends or anything, but like I thought I remember seeing her name and thinking it was really cool that like she also was a um, I forget if it was Caldecott winner, Caldecott honor. Um, but that was a six-figure deal as well. So that was exciting to see. Um and that one is out and you can purchase it. And I will put a link in the show notes if you want to check it out. Um, but she's basically she's like one of the agents out there doing six-figure picture book deals, which is wild. Um, she is with Folio Jr. So one interesting thing when you look at what she her MSWL, she says, please note that my colleague Estelle Laurie and I work very closely together. Any queries to me should also be considered queries to her. And I think that's so cute. I hope I have this headcanon that like they're just the best of friends and they hang out at their desks together and they share all of their queries over lunch. And um, I don't ruin it for me. I that's what I want to believe.
SPEAKER_01Um but I have no idea. So let's just go with that as being fact.
SPEAKER_00Yes, please. Um, so Emily Van Vieek's uh bio is uh she moved to New York City from Toronto with dual citizenship. So that explains why she has such big rights for um Canada deals. Uh it is a dream to work in children's publishing and inspiration from her favorite if cliched, um, Zen Margaret says leap and the net will appear. Um she is a partner at Folio Jr. Um, or a partner at Folio. So I guess she she runs Folio Jr. Um, and then she gives a list of clients. She doesn't have a ton of info about herself. Um and then under like her wish list, she breaks down new adult, young adult, middle grade, and picture books. And for picture books, I'll I'll read that one since um that's what we're talking about. She says, we're exclusively interested in author illustrators, especially award-worthy artwork, character-driven series, and work by diverse creators featuring diverse stories. Uh, we are not looking for board books or novelty books or picture books that are just text. For middle grade, uh, she is interested in exquisitely imagined middle grade, uh, first crush, first tremors of love type books. We would be thrilled to find a comedy or humorously mischievous story. We are looking for a plot that works with the middle grade attention span, which is always at the top of their mind. Um, for young adult, they're looking for novels that are high concept and also incredibly well written. They want uh to be in the marrow of the human experience with a bold and fresh voice that is impossible to put aside, which I feel like some agents are hyper-specific, which is fantastic, where they're like, I want these genres, etc. Um, and then some of them are like, I want something amazing. I feel like I'll know it when I see it. Yeah, it's like it has to be beautifully well written. It has to make me feel something. I'm like, okay, um that doesn't help me. I know that's like casting a wide net. So I always wonder if it's like, do they just are they just not in the mood for anything specific? And so they just kind of want everything and they'll reject as needed, or is it like they're looking for a particular like writing voice and they don't care as much about genre? Um and I still have no idea. I have no answer to that question, but I always think it's interesting when like their their wish list is vague enough that anyone could submit if they think their book is well written. Um and then for new adult, they say they would love a coming of age story with series potential, a romanticy series with a new delicious hook, or a cozy mystery series with potential high concept speculative um or juicy family drama. Um, they're looking for a comedy, rom-com, or otherwise hilarious romp. So uh that is their list. Um they don't do anything past new adult. And uh yeah, they're surprisingly open to queries. They do, um they they're not doing query manager, they're doing it via email. So under the tab for Emily Van Beek on Folio Jr., you just have to click on how to submit, and then it has that email there with instructions. Um, but with that, I think that's everything for this week's episode. Thank you so much for listening. Bye. Ramble.
SPEAKER_01Goodbye.